SSPX disrupts interfaith service at Buenos Aires cathedral

The Deacon's Bench ^ | November 13, 2013 | Deacon Greg Kandra

[BlueDragon]

If a Jew prays to a crucifix...??? You GOTTA BE KIDDING.

Praying to crucifixes does not make one a Christian. Praying to God the Father in Jesus's name however, could be a sign.

But praying to crucifixes...that's skipping a step, isn't it(?) since according to you;

When a pagan dances around a stick he worships the same God too...

which seemingly, according to you, is part of that (gag) Catholic Christianity that Jesus taught is true worship...

The mask slips, the confusion of face peaks out. There are large swaths of {Roman] Catholicism which Christ absolutely did not teach.

Mary, His own earthly mother...everyone else's mother too?

justified every 'ol which-a-way leading to, look -- here is your mother Our Lady of the Conquest by which we will subjugate you. Mom loves us best, dontcha' know...

No, that and much more of Roman Catholicism came from the darkened and fearful minds of men, not lead of the Holy Ghost, but of their fleshly imaginations and fears applied to what Gospel had been handed to them.

Trying to make it better, they added that which did not belong, and distanced by qualification and extra "rules" that which did belong, to the Gospel.

[ebb tide]

“The full number of the Gentiles and all Israel: In this formula we see the universalism of the divine salvific will. For our purposes, though, the important point is that Paul, too, recognizes an age of the Gentiles, which is the present and which must be fulfilled if God’s plan is to attain its goal.”

Pope Benedict XVI

[piusv]

I noticed that comment as well (praying to crucifix). Although I completely disagree with annalex’s take on the matter, I’m also pretty sure he didn’t mean that literally.

[ebb tide]

Mary, His own earthly mother...everyone else's mother too?

[26] When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. [27] After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. John, Chapter 19

[ebb tide]

This was an inter faith ceremony, not a conference.

All the more reason not to hold it in a Catholic cathedral. Let them celebrate in a Unitarian church.

[BlueDragon]

Oh, puh-leaze! What was going on there [John 19] is quite different from what Romanist Catholics have e-x-p-a-n-d-e-d and thus distorted, in regards to "Mary" and much else, too!

All of it [Roman Catholicism] as seen through the centuries -- in not what Christ "taught", or else the earliest generations of Christians were laggardly, with only those coming along centuries later doing "as Christ taught", particularly in regards to "Mary".

[ebb tide]

Do you pray the "Our Father"? It was taught by Jesus Christ. Who was Jesus' mother?

[BlueDragon]

I noticed that comment as well (praying to crucifix). Although I completely disagree with annalex’s take on the matter, I’m also pretty sure he didn’t mean that literally.

Let's see it again, this time the entire sentence;

When a pagan dances around a stick he worships the same God too, for there is no other God.

The pagan could have been worshiping who-knows-what from who-knows-where of his own cultural tradition. For all we know, it could have (and most likely did?) include "forces" and the demonic. Yet in the quoted [above] statement, none of that is taken into account. Thus, by employment of syncretism customs and attitudes foreign to the Judeo-Christian construct have been blended into the "Christian" portion and mindset.

If it were not for the "Protestant" influence, those who earnestly sought a return to earliest precepts [of Christianity] there's not much telling how far the syncretism would have run.

For those with slathering hatreds of any and all "Christian" expression and teaching not of and by RCC source or "experience" (not yourself, necessarily -- for you don't seem that type, to me) they may wish to consider contributions from those sources (which admittedly require some amount of filtering) have long sought to keep us all honest --- about Christ.

It is highly doubtful that the pagan was worshiping the same God.

If that not be so, then why all the fuss concerning idols and idol worship in ancient Israel?

God termed it "going whoring after other gods.

Do we believe we can mix and blend, in hopes of truly converting [from idol worship, and that sort of superstitious thinking] by renaming those sort of activities with pious "Christian" theme and name?

[piusv]

I think you misunderstood my focus. I was referring specifically to the “praying to a crucifix” comment.

[BlueDragon]

Do you pray the "Our Father"? It was taught by Jesus Christ. Who was Jesus' mother?

I'm sorry, but I will not much play along with your confused questioning, which to my own eyes, is designed to lead only to more of the same Marianist syncretic confusion.

We have a spiritual Father, in Heaven. Jesus taught no one to pray to His earthly mother, or implore her or anyone else (including angels) for their own "heavenly" intercessions.

The very "our Father" prayer which you reference, reinforces prayer to be addressed to --- none other than "Our Father" in heaven.

The other aspect to my unwillingness to allow yourself to draw me in to some discussion/narrative any further than I allow in this reply, is that you asked me what "I" prayed, thus personalizing it, right off the bat.

Step back a few paces. Try your question again if you wish -- but speak of principles, and do not require me to answer what I "pray" or do not.

Discuss the issues (whatever those may be) not people here, as much as possible.

That said, if any have some personal testimony or witness they are led to share, then I won't kick about the act of them doing so.

[ebb tide]

I'm sorry, but I will not much play along with your confused questioning, ...

It was two simple questions; each requiring just a "Yes" or "No". If you can't answer them, I understand your confusion and your animosity towards the Catholic faith.

[ebb tide]

Jesus taught no one to pray to His earthly mother, or implore her or anyone else (including angels) for their own "heavenly" intercessions.

"Intercessions", you say?

[5] His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.

John: Chapter 2

[JosefKozma]

SSPX is concerned with the fact the Modern Catholic Church teaches Jew they can be saved without Jesus, Jesus said, I am the way the Truth, and the Life, no one can come to the Father but by me. Thus, the Church has always taught, Outside the Church, there is no salvation. Individual Jews must believe in Christ, personally, as Savior and Lord, they are being lied to by modernists who defy the Traditional Catholic Faith.

Catholics must share the gospel, the traditional faith teaches all who refuse belief in Christ will be damned to hell. Therefore, SSPX is showing mercy by letting the Jews know, they are in grave, present danger of eternal damnation. Vatican II has really watered down the missionary imperative of the Church, its teachings, violating the traditional faith are false.

[BlueDragon]

I think you misunderstood my focus. I was referring specifically to the “praying to a crucifix” comment.

Ok, I did switch over to the other comment. Yet -- do you see the connection?

By syncretism, it can gallop towards being the same.

People have often enough been or become superstitious in regards to religious imagery, including crucifixes, whether with or without representation of "corpus" attached.

Praying to a cross? How many have approached such things with reverence and awe included for the visible object or representation itself? It's the most natural thing in the world to do...but is a mistake.

The Lord dwells not in temples made of hands.

Exodus 20

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me...

[piusv]

Didn’t you know that was an anti-Semitic teaching? ;-)

[BlueDragon]

yeah, yeah...I KNEW (when I used that word "intercession") you would bring that passage up. Whatever insights can be gained from that passage, are a far cry from praying to her now, for her own "heavenly" intercessions.

From the text, we do not know that Mary knew then, at the time just previous to the miraculous water-into-wine occurrence, that that was what was going to happen.

If we are to be assuming possibilities, then going by the text, we can as well assume she [Mary] was simply relating what was in her view a sad state of affairs. Not enough wine for the wedding party.

From Christ's own reaction to her (with all of this most likely related to Christ's disciples some time after the crucifixion, and probably the Resurrection too(?)) there can a sense gained that she did know, then, that something significant was about to occur, leading her to say "what ever he says, do that".

To now rely upon that as being how we need approach God, like either household servants, or guests of the wedding party, needing to take instruction from his own earthly mother, Mary, to take instruction from Christ --- flies directly in the face of the "Our Father" explicit instruction which HE gave, as how to best pray.

The earliest church did not direct anyone to pray to "Mary", either, although they may have included some thankfulness and loving remembrance for her having lived --- even among them (for a time).

But praying to her? That is one of those types of practices (and ways of thinking) that crept into the church, over an extended period of time.

So what now? There will be someone just itching to post --- but we only ask her to pray for us"? Uh-huh. Yeah, right. It's not restricted to just that, in all quarters of Romish Catholicism, for she has become as demi-goddess diety, part of a pantheon of angels and saints one is encouraged to direct prayers towards.

I do wish people would stop taking that passage from John 2 out of context, then adding assumption to it, to reach for justification of praying to Mary (or any other) instead of simply praying as Christ more explicitly directed. Our Father, who is in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, etc.

Oh wait. Now the itch to make mention of "Mary" as "Queen of Heaven", so as to provide explanation for her being "Queen" of that "kingdom come" which we are to seek the Lord concerning -- which means we should pray to her too.

I know that itch is out there -- just admit it. Any way it can be done, hyper-veneration of "Mary" is promoted as some on-going spiritual necessity, even in the face of direct leading away from "venerating" her for sake of her being the womb and paps which bore His own earthly incarnation.

I've seen all the Marianist arguments before...and they all have one thing in common. They suck.

[BlueDragon]

It was two simple questions; each requiring just a "Yes" or "No". If you can't answer them, I understand your confusion and your animosity towards the Catholic faith.

How rude. Stop making it personal. I'm fed up to the gills and overflowing with "personalized" style of discussion on this forum.

It's just so much flame-bait. A constant tempting towards evil.

[ebb tide]

How rude. Stop making it personal. I'm fed up to the gills and overflowing with "personalized" style of discussion on this forum.

I recommend you practice what you preach.

I know that itch is out there -- just admit it.

[ebb tide]

Any way it can be done, hyper-veneration of "Mary"

Just a quick point:

The veneration of the Blessed Mother is called hyperdulia, not hyper-veneration.

The veneration of the saints and angels is called dulia.

The worship of God is called patria.

[ebb tide]

patria=latria