Posted on 11/14/2013 9:24:09 AM PST by Alex Murphy
A Roman Catholic scholar and former philosophy and religion professor has released a new book that defends Mormonism as "one of the youngest branches on the Christian tree," and claims that Christians can learn from the Mormon religion.
Stephen H. Webb, former 25 year professor of religion and philosophy at Wabash College and author of the book, Mormon Christianity: What Other Christians Can Learn From the Latter-day Saints, told The Christian Post that, among other things, "Mormon theology teaches us to think of matter in new and creative ways."
"Traditional theology teaches that matter is lifeless, without the soul it's just dead weight," Webb explained. But this view is not inherent in the Christian faith, he argued, "it took a long time until Christians started accepting this idea of matter."
Furthermore, with the discoveries of modern physics, Webb encourages Christians to accept a more lively, spiritual view of matter.
"Matter has something of the divine in it," he argued. "Matter can be elevated, it can transcend its own state."
Webb also claims that this concept is not pantheistic, but lies at the heart of Roman Catholicism, with the idea of transubstantiation, where the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
Lynn Wilder, former Brigham Young University professor and author of Unveiling Grace: The Story of How We Found Our Way Out of the Mormon Church, told CP that "Webb's position on Mormon teachings is corroborated in Mormon scripture where God the Father has a body of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22) as does Jesus, and that all spirit -- even their Holy Ghost -- is matter (D&C 131:7-8)."
Wilder added, however, that this belief "is what makes Mormonism polytheistic instead of monotheistic."
"In Mormonism," Wilder explained, "each God consists of matter and is separate from the others," as opposed to united in the Christian Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
"Since a worthy priesthood-holding, temple-attending Mormon male can eventually work his way to godhood like all three members of the Mormon godhood did, according to LDS teachings, there could be millions of gods with material bodies," she added.
Wilder also emphasized that Mormons do not believe God created the universe ex nihilo, or out of nothing, citing Psalms 32 as the basis for this doctrine.
The Church of Latter-day Saints, she explained, teaches that the gods "reorganized matter that already existed (Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham 4:1)."
Webb, however, defended the Church of Latter-day Saints as a branch of Christianity.
"To me, Mormons should be grouped with all the other Protestant denominations in terms of how the Catholic Church sees them," as 'separated brethren,' he explained.
Webb also lamented the Roman Catholic Church's decision -- which he called "recent" -- to not accept the baptism of Mormons. "I think that's a very unfortunate decision," he said.
"Mormons are closer to Catholics than most Protestants," Webb added, noting that they "love the ritual, love the history, family, traditional values."
He expressed annoyance at the common Evangelical dismissal of Roman Catholic and Mormon churches in that they "don't feel Jesus there." Mormons and Catholics "don't have a born again experience," but believe that faith involves "gradual, deeper immersion in scripture and tradition," he explained.
Providing an opposing view, Wilder dismissed these arguments, emphasizing the fact that Mormons do not follow the Bible alone.
"Mormons believe that Christ's church fell away after the original apostles died, so the Catholic Church is not true," she argued. "The true church was not restored until Joseph Smith, so although Webb would say they are brothers, Mormon doctrine teaches otherwise."
Wilder also acknowledged that Mormons have communion, but emphasized that they use "leavened bread and water, not fruit of the vine or unleavened bread." In short, "the Mormon Jesus teaches a different way to be saved so [He] is not the biblical Jesus."
She also claimed to know the Church of Latter-day Saints more intimately than Webb, noting her experience at Brigham Young University and her husband's experience in the temple.
The author of Mormon Christianity "would not know the deep doctrines of Mormonism that are taught in the temple or in the various priesthood classes for members," she alleged.
What do you mean they claim no priesthood authority?
#1...the book of Hebrews CLEARLY says that Jesus ALONE is the High Priest:
...there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. 26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. (Heb. 7:23-27)
#2...Now go to Jesus' Great Commission in Matt 28:18-20 where He (a) says HE has ALL authority...it's not 51% Him and 49% the Vatican; and it's not 51% Him and 49% Salt Lake City. and (b) Jesus adds that He will be with His disciples ALWAYS -- even unto the end of the Age...making it clear He wasn't just talking about those disciples He was talking to.
So...Heb. 7:24 and Matt. 28:20 make it clear that Jesus lives forever...and He is present with us forever. He alone has the ability to authorize His priesthood & His apostles. He authorized Peter as an apostle...and what did Peter say the priesthood consisted of...?
It's in 1 Peter 2:4-9...see especially vv. 5, 9:
4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. 9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
In verse 9, Peter makes it clear that God's chosen PEOPLE -- a holy NATION -- is God's royal priesthood.
Martin Luther referenced this as "the priesthood of all believers."
John the Revelator says in Revelation 1 that those who have been freed from sin "have been made to be...priests..." (Rev. 1:5-6)
If you're free from your sins, you are a priest. If you don't believe that, you are labeling both John & Peter as false prophets.
Mormons claim that Salt Lake City is needed as their "mousetrap" divine vocal chord...when Hebrews 1:1-2 makes it clear that in the PAST God operated thru prophets, but now (in the Latter-days) He speaks thru His Son:
Mormons essentially ignore Hebrews 1:1-2...'cause it doesn't fit their "prophet restoration narrative"...
The author of Hebrews then -- after dismissing competition with the Living Prophet, Jesus Christ -- then dismisses competition with the Living High Priest Jesus Christ in Heb. 7:23-24...saying that the priests of old would die. Jesus Lives forever. He's got the High Priesthood covered! And the type of OT atonement was a mere type pointing to His Ultimate Atonement on the cross!
You see in the OT, the prophets represented the voice of God; and the priests represented the people and their need for their sin to be atoned before God.
Jesus came as Prophet, Priest, and King...all the prophetic verses in the OT point to Jesus holding this 3-in-1 role.
We don't need OT-type prophets and OT-type priests since Jesus is STILL operating HERE as both!
Instead, He still has the Holy Spirit speak prophetically thru spiritual gifts...and He has opened up the priesthood to a "chosen people...a holy nation...people who have been freed from...sins"...
And now that priesthood role is intercessory from a prayer perspective. We intercede prayerfully on behalf of others.
Women can do that. Intercessory prayer is a servant-leadership role -- something both men & women do from their knees.
In your arguments in your post, you make the same “priesthood” mistake that Mormons make with “prophet” status. . . .
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While it is fine that you believe this way, there is a very significant number of people who believe that without linage there is no authority and they have plenty of good reasons for their beliefs. It is all about beliefs. Most Catholics would not agree with you. The priesthood to many is a needful thing.
People's ideas change. At one time Jews could not exist without priesthood but today they don't have any.
I believe that when Christ gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter He did not give them to me or anybody else except as Peter may have directed. To make it worse if as you say all believers in Christ have the priesthood then the Mormons have it too because they certainly believe in Christ. There has to be authority. God is not an author of confusion. The Scriptures are not authority, there are a number of different translations and versions and interpretations that make it impossible to settle many questions. The Vicar of Rome, the Holy Father, The Mantle of Peter, or The Pope at least is the final authority on earth and he is that authority only because he holds the priesthood and has been elevated and elected by those that also hold the priesthood. At least in their eyes these things are so. They believe it and believe you are not a holder of the priesthood. Catholics are good to Protestants and even are willing to accept their baptism but that is a recent development. Who is it on the earth that can authoritatively answer doctrinal questions other than the Pope, The Patriarch or the Mormon President?
Isn’t saying “Mormon Christianity” the same thing as saying “Holy Roman Empire?”
Mark, thanks but wait a few more hours...No Mormons showed up yet:) The poster is not Mormon. Hats off for the early apologetics response:)
>> “The American Mohamhead” <<
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John Ahmanson, an early mormon, called him “Vor Tids Muhamed,” Finnish for “a Mohammed for our time,” in his book by that same name.
Most significantly, mormons believe that men become gods. All of their gods are former men.
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He gave them to all believers, not to Peter.
Peter is no more elevated than any other believer.
Mark 9:
[33] And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?
[34] But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
[35] And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.
Matthew 23:
[8] But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
[9] And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
[10] Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
[11] But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. [12] And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
So — just to get this clear -— the first Anabaptists were in the 16th century? And did the Baptists derive from them?
Thank you.
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1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”
Incredibly dishonest response to the statement “Mormons hold that there is no real Trinity.” The doctrine of the Trinity, implicit in the name, is that there are three persons but only one God. Not three separate gods, nor one God playing different roles, but a Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, co-eternal, and almighty.
Mormonism is henotheism, which is polytheism with a focus on a central deity, or, at least, the deity that rules planet Earth.
This is contrary to all scripture, and damnable heresy.
Isa_43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
“Christ paid for this for all people. “
This is ignorance of what the doctrine of Original Sin even means. Obviously, Christ did not vanquish our sin nature, which will always be present until after we have died. As Paul himself, who lamented of his sins, testifies.
“Take it up with the CDF. I just quoted from them.
To be candid, I neither know nor care what LDS believe.”
You need to get educated. Even though you’re a Catholic and I’d rather you stay ignorant of all things, it is your duty to study the Holy Scripture and to be ready to “give an answer” to all evil-doers who preach Gospels contrary to the one handed down to us.
Don’t be apathetic. Get to work. Fight the good fight.
“While it is fine that you believe this way, there is a very significant number of people who believe that without linage there is no authority and they have plenty of good reasons for their beliefs. It is all about beliefs. Most Catholics would not agree with you. The priesthood to many is a needful thing.”
This is an anti-Biblical point of view, since your response shouldn’t be “it is all about beliefs,” but “what does the scripture say?” The Priesthood of all believers is no mere “belief,” as if it were a baseless tradition, but is openly taught in the scripture.
Peter is no more elevated than any other believer.
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Wow, now I've heard it all. So we don't need leaders? Everybody can interpret the scriptures the way they want?
The reality is that interpretation of the scriptures is “belief”. People read and come to different conclusions. The reason that Christ confounded the Elders when he was 12 years old is that he explained the scriptures to them who completely misunderstood them.
Christ Church was built on the concept that man can know that Christ is The Son of God, any man or woman can know this through the revelation given by the Holy Ghost, but, just knowing Christ is Lord does not give anyone the power to seal on earth and heaven. Christ personally gave those powers, or “keys” if you will to only one person, Peter. Peter was not greater than anyone. He was humble enough that when he was crucified he asked to be hanged upside down because he didn't want to look like he was being like The Lord, he was lowly. A lowly person can be a leader. President Reagan was known for taking sandwiches and drinks to his secret service personnel at activities when they had to stand out in the cold. People in high places can be “servants of all”.
If there is no authority there is bedlam.
“If there is no authority there is bedlam.”
A contradictory statement, since you wrote just a moment before that Christ, as a child, astounded the Pharisees because they “misunderstood” the scripture. This is not a victory based on authority, where the Pharisees had to bow to His interpretation because they knew He was God, but by demonstration of the Holy Scripture.
Its unfortunate that you lack the keys, but the rest of us have them.
Words such as "false" "wrong" "error" do not attribute motive.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
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