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To: markomalley
You said: Difference of views: Mormons hold that there is no real Trinity, no original sin, that Christ did not institute baptism . . . . .

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I will say that Mormons I know do believe in The Trinity, they define it differently. They believe there is a Father, a Son and a Holy Ghost. Three entities. There are at least as many good arguments in favor of the Mormon view as there are in the Catholic view. The Catholics have had their view about 1500 years longer than the Mormons however.

I have no desire to reply to this article as far arguing any validity in it, but only to the view that Mormons hold that Christ did not institute Baptism. My comments therefore are only in a very narrow line.

You will remember that Christ sought and obtained “John's Baptism”. John was already doing it prior to Christ's ministry. Christ's Apostles continued it after both John and Christ.

I don't know how any protestant can recognize any baptism other than the Catholic baptism. If a protestant minister can baptize then anybody can. They claim no priesthood authority to do so. Most say they “feel” they have been called by the Holy Spirit to be ministers. Many are ordained by their sect to be “ministers” of their faith, not to any priesthood. To say the the Mormon baptism is invalid is ok but if you do you must also invalidate every other baptism that is performed outside the Roman or Eastern Catholic Church.

While it is true that Catholic faith teaches that the whole Church is part of a royal priesthood, only ordained priests & deacons are allowed to administer any ordinances in that priesthood. The Roman Catholic Priesthood is a very complicated organization. The rules and methods of being a priest have changed over the centuries.

Many will say that because Martin Luther was a priest that protestant churches hold the priesthood through him. That is totally false, one because most protestants do not trace their history through the Lutheran Church and two, Martin Luther never had authority to ordain anybody to be a priest, he was a priest, not a bishop. Bishops are priests, yes, but they are still special with special authority. Ordinations in the Catholic Church are done from high to low except for the POPE and the Pope is just the leading Cardinal which is usually an elevated Bishop and does not require special ordination for his position, however he must elevate other Cardinals. While technically Bishops and Cardinals are Priests that are “elevated” not really ordained they do require the formality of Letter or in person laying on of hands to receive their official elevation. No priest can elevate himself to the “office” of Bishop or Cardinal any more than a Deacon can elevate himself to a Priest.

The Catholic Church priesthood has evolved much, especially in the first 1000-1100 years, it is stabilizing now and for the last few hundred years has not undergone dramatic change although there have been some significant changes especially in the college of Cardinals size and age limits. At any rate, Martin Luther was never elevated or given authority to elevate others including deacons to priest.

The keys of the kingdom were given to Peter. Those keys included sealing in Heaven what was sealed on earth. I know of no place where the Catholic Church has given up those keys. There may be many good arguments as to who held them when but I know of no time when they were voluntarily given to any Protestant church.

The reality is that any church that proclaims itself part of the “Holy Catholic Church” is not with the possible exception of the Roman Catholic Church, maybe the Eastern Orthodox and maybe a few churches Whose history predate Constantine. Saying something does not make it so.

If a protestant minister proclaims the right through the Holy Spirit to Baptize then certainly Mormon ministers have just as much right to do the same thing. I realize that Mormons do not claim that authority as coming from The Holy Ghost, they claim their linage to Peter. Unless you can prove otherwise one “claim” is as good as another.

After saying all that, it does not mean that I think that only Catholics are Christians. I personally allow anyone who says that they follow Christ to be a Christian in my book, fortunately I am not a judge of any significance in any realm so it really doesn't matter what I think to anyone except me.

19 posted on 11/14/2013 12:27:49 PM PST by JAKraig (Surely my religion is at least as good as yours)
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To: JAKraig; markomalley; All
I don't know how any protestant can recognize any baptism other than the Catholic baptism. If a protestant minister can baptize then anybody can. They claim no priesthood authority to do so

What do you mean they claim no priesthood authority?

#1...the book of Hebrews CLEARLY says that Jesus ALONE is the High Priest:

...there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. 26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. (Heb. 7:23-27)

#2...Now go to Jesus' Great Commission in Matt 28:18-20 where He (a) says HE has ALL authority...it's not 51% Him and 49% the Vatican; and it's not 51% Him and 49% Salt Lake City. and (b) Jesus adds that He will be with His disciples ALWAYS -- even unto the end of the Age...making it clear He wasn't just talking about those disciples He was talking to.

So...Heb. 7:24 and Matt. 28:20 make it clear that Jesus lives forever...and He is present with us forever. He alone has the ability to authorize His priesthood & His apostles. He authorized Peter as an apostle...and what did Peter say the priesthood consisted of...?

It's in 1 Peter 2:4-9...see especially vv. 5, 9:
4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. 9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

In verse 9, Peter makes it clear that God's chosen PEOPLE -- a holy NATION -- is God's royal priesthood.

Martin Luther referenced this as "the priesthood of all believers."

John the Revelator says in Revelation 1 that those who have been freed from sin "have been made to be...priests..." (Rev. 1:5-6)

If you're free from your sins, you are a priest. If you don't believe that, you are labeling both John & Peter as false prophets.

21 posted on 11/14/2013 12:46:03 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: JAKraig; All
In your arguments in your post, you make the same "priesthood" mistake that Mormons make with "prophet" status.

Mormons claim that Salt Lake City is needed as their "mousetrap" divine vocal chord...when Hebrews 1:1-2 makes it clear that in the PAST God operated thru prophets, but now (in the Latter-days) He speaks thru His Son:

"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things..."

Hebrews 1:1-2

Mormons essentially ignore Hebrews 1:1-2...'cause it doesn't fit their "prophet restoration narrative"...

The author of Hebrews then -- after dismissing competition with the Living Prophet, Jesus Christ -- then dismisses competition with the Living High Priest Jesus Christ in Heb. 7:23-24...saying that the priests of old would die. Jesus Lives forever. He's got the High Priesthood covered! And the type of OT atonement was a mere type pointing to His Ultimate Atonement on the cross!

You see in the OT, the prophets represented the voice of God; and the priests represented the people and their need for their sin to be atoned before God.

Jesus came as Prophet, Priest, and King...all the prophetic verses in the OT point to Jesus holding this 3-in-1 role.

We don't need OT-type prophets and OT-type priests since Jesus is STILL operating HERE as both!

Instead, He still has the Holy Spirit speak prophetically thru spiritual gifts...and He has opened up the priesthood to a "chosen people...a holy nation...people who have been freed from...sins"...

And now that priesthood role is intercessory from a prayer perspective. We intercede prayerfully on behalf of others.

Women can do that. Intercessory prayer is a servant-leadership role -- something both men & women do from their knees.

22 posted on 11/14/2013 12:56:48 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: JAKraig
I personally allow anyone who says that they follow Christ to be a Christian in my book, fortunately I am not a judge of any significance in any realm so it really doesn't matter what I think to anyone except me.

Too bad the early MORMONs were NOT as accommodating as you are!



59 posted on 11/15/2013 5:10:06 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: JAKraig
I will say that Mormons I know do believe in The Trinity, they define it differently. They believe there is a Father, a Son and a Holy Ghost. Three entities.


Learning ALERT!!


http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/16Jun44.html

60 posted on 11/15/2013 5:11:17 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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