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Full title: Evangelii gaudium 54 (“trickle-down economics”). Significant translation error changed meaning.

Actually, this doesn't surprise me so much.

Does anybody remember the Bruhaha that was stirred up with Benedict XVI's Caritas in Veritate §67?

English:

67. In the face of the unrelenting growth of global interdependence, there is a strongly felt need, even in the midst of a global recession, for a reform of the United Nations Organization, and likewise of economic institutions and international finance, so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth.

Versus the German:

67. Gegenüber der unaufhaltsamen Zunahme weltweiter gegenseitiger Abhängigkeit wird gerade auch bei einer ebenso weltweit anzutreffenden Rezession stark die Dringlichkeit einer Reform sowohl der Organisation der Vereinten Nationen als auch der internationalen Wirtschafts- und Finanzgestaltung empfunden, damit dem Konzept einer Familie der Nationen reale und konkrete Form gegeben werden kann.

"Material and concrete form" is a whole lot different than "acquire real teeth".

(btw, if anybody was interested, the Latin was ut familiae Nationum notio re efficiatur)

Anyway, the point is that the English translation staff there needs to be shown the door. These mistakes (or intentional politicization) happen far too often.

1 posted on 11/29/2013 9:10:30 AM PST by markomalley
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To: markomalley
Anyway, the point is that the English translation staff there needs to be shown the door. These mistakes (or intentional politicization) happen far too often.

Correcto!

2 posted on 11/29/2013 9:13:48 AM PST by Don Corleone ("Oil the gun..eat the cannoli. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: markomalley

Excellent post — putting the truth out there.


3 posted on 11/29/2013 9:16:13 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: markomalley
Evangelii gaudium 54 (“trickle-down economics”). Significant translation error changed meaning.

Would the Ru'ach HaKodesh permit the "mistranslation" ??

And if "yes" then why ?

To what purpose ?

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
4 posted on 11/29/2013 9:22:21 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: markomalley; zot; NYer; Interesting Times; Salvation

I agree, the Vatican needs to get a new set of translators and/or proof readers who are familiar with both American and British English languages, whom can check for those potential ‘land mines.’


5 posted on 11/29/2013 9:31:18 AM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: markomalley

I have been very critical of the exhortation. But, I can say that this proposed translation makes sense.

Will free-market economics by itself result in everyone being better off materially and better off in the sense of being included in the human family?

Free-market economics by itself will result in A LARGE MAJORITY being better off materially and better off in the sense of being included in the human family. But, what about children, those enfeebled by old age, those who suffer from serious illness or accident, and those who are lonely and despairing?

(Granted, some of these we can handle with insurance; e.g., pensions, life insurance, unemployment insurance, and health insurance.)

Furthermore, free-market economics ENABLES us, in charity, to generously provide for those among not entirely able to provide for themselves.

But, we ALSO need CHRISTIAN LOVE to act on the opportunity provided by free-market economics to provide the material support that some need. EVEN MORE THAN THIS, only Christian love can reach out to the lonely and those who are despairing with the Gospel message of hope.

I would also say that true poverty has little to do with the material standard of living provided by free-market economics. People can be, and all through history, were poor by the standards of the advanced economies of the world of today; and, yet, many were happy. What is most important is that those who are able to work find work through which they can serve others, so that they have rightfully earned their place in society; and, that they enter the family of mankind on the basis of free association.

Yes, because of our ignorance and selfishness, it is a good thing that we have a free-market economy. But, it would be a better thing - whatever is the economic system - that we put our trust in God and that we love one another.


6 posted on 11/29/2013 9:36:28 AM PST by Redmen4ever
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To: markomalley

In this age of socialist governments the pope should stay away completely from bashing trickle down in any way. It is the main vehicle through which the poor are helped which is what he claims he wants to do. He should be promoting trickle down enthusiastically.


11 posted on 11/29/2013 11:02:02 AM PST by what's up
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To: markomalley
"intentional politicization"

That would be my guess given the fact that this mistranslation completely buried several of the liberal agenda items being smacked down by Francis and his championing of a someone the liberals loathe as having the correct view of V II.

Don't worry, though, Conservatives aren't sheep who are easily and instantly manipulated by the media hitting a few hot buttons. Right?

13 posted on 11/29/2013 11:41:52 AM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory)
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To: markomalley
I got the memo about backing off the "culture wars" and the need to avoid constantly haranguing the world about the evils of abortion, sexual perversion, promiscuity etc., because apparently that causes the current generation to turn a deaf ear. Instead, we're supposed to promote the joy of the Gospel and the love of Jesus for all men who, once they've seen the light, will then see abortion for the evil that it is and the problem will then take care of itself. Isn't that how it goes? First bring people to Jesus? Have I got that right?

Why is it that this maxim apparently doesn't also apply to economic theory, poverty, inequality, etc? Why the constant haranguing about "injustice against the poor", the suffering of the unemployed etc? Why the deluge of homilies and essays which hammer the economic priorities of developed nations? Yes, I know they're awry and I know that the poor are suffering and often exploited.

I'm simply puzzled at the apparently different approach to that recommended for the "culture wars" involving life issues, sexuality and traditional morality. Pope Francis raises the cause of the poor on an almost daily basis. It's an issue on which he constantly preaches and he apparently has no fear that we'll get fed up of listening to him and tune him out as he claims the world has done over the abortion issue, for instance.

If I'm paying attention correctly, we're supposed to ease up on the "culture wars" but put the pedal to the metal on the "poverty wars", instead.

What am I missing?

14 posted on 11/29/2013 11:49:44 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; ...

Ping!


19 posted on 11/29/2013 1:23:49 PM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: markomalley

Very good!

Another related offering:

http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2013/tea-party-catholics.html

Religious freedom and economic freedom are linked. ;-)


21 posted on 11/29/2013 3:06:44 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: markomalley

Also, here are two worthwhile videos and the link to both:

1. Rev. Robert A. Sirico Comments on the Economic Views of Pope Francis in ‘Evangelii Gaudium’

2. PovertyCure trailer

http://blog.acton.org/archives/63186-video-rev-robert-sirico-responds-pope-francis-economic-views-evangelii-gaudium.html


22 posted on 11/29/2013 3:11:37 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: markomalley
Should Pope Francis have used the term subsidiarity rather than "trickle down"?

Actually, subsidiarity means trickle up.

Problems -- start to solve them within your family, then your local church, local organizations, local community, then up to the county level, and up to the state level, and finally to a federal level.

Some of these threads explain it much better than I am doing.

Repeat After Me: Subsidiarity & Solidarity
Subsidiarity and Human Dignity
Does the USCCB Understand Subsidiarity?
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] The Principle of Subsidiarity
[CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX CAUCUS] Subsidiarity Over Social Justice
What is the USCCB’s problem with subsidiarity?
Subsidiarity: Where Justice and Freedom Coexist
Health reform still full of thorny problems for Catholics (Vasa comes out for subsidiarity)
What You [Catholics] Need to Know: Subsidiarity, [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Catholic Word of the Day: SUBSIDIARITY, 06-11-09

33 posted on 11/29/2013 7:53:36 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: markomalley

IDK how “por so mismo” could be translated as “inevitably” in the first place.


39 posted on 11/30/2013 6:49:35 AM PST by ottbmare (the OTTB mare, now a proud Marine Mom)
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To: markomalley
“In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories [’trickle down economics’] which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will by itself succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world.”

It's not that this is untrue, just that it's a strawman argument. I don't know anyone who thinks this. I don't read anyone who thinks this. Pretty much most folks who are economically-sophisticated understand that capitalism actually doesn't work so well in societies that don't abide by a fundamental public morality that includes: respect for property rights; respect for contracts; respect for the rule of law; respect for individual liberties. These things put all persons in a society on an equal footing, legally, and that permits the genius and hard work of individuals to cause them to flourish and prosper.

I don't know any serious folks who think that capitalism can thrive outside of a society without a strong legal and juridical system protecting property, contracts, individual rights, etc.

It's the folks who abridge capitalism, free enterprise, by using government to enforce economic rents for government cronies, by changing the laws after the fact, by INCREASING the power of the regulatory state so that no one REALLY knows what the law is until the regulators, and then the judges have their say. The one with the most expensive lawyers, the most connected lobbyists, and the biggest slush fund wins. The guy practicing actual free market capitalism, well, he may get left out in the cold.

Increasing inequality isn't a result of red-in-the-tooth capitalists run amok, but rather than those who are already rich and powerful buy politicians and REDUCE the function of the markets, and use government to further enrich them, to create regulatory barriers to entry to markets, and to plain old steal from the public purse.

The pope's words seem to be directed at folks that don't exist, and give cover to evil-doers who actually do exist.

61 posted on 12/06/2013 6:06:50 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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