Morality and economics, Pope Francis, and Rush Limbaugh

Renew America ^ | November 30, 2013 | Matt C. Abbott

[Nifster]

Apparently you have never read Milton Friedman

[annalex]

I am very well versed in libertarianism in general, and understand Friedman’s theory. I would agree with libertarianism that in a society of moral people of homogeneous culture the free market without government distortions is the best vehicle of prosperity. I do not think the theory applies in diverse cultures and with intrusive governments at all points of international exchange, especially in secular societies. In the latter environment the “pockets of exclusion” as His Holiness called them will invariably be created, and it becomes the job of the national government to reopen these pockets to healthy commerce and moral behavioral patterns.

A good example is a black ghetto in any major US city: a combination of welfare, anti-business local government, and crime as prevailing economic policy, plus abortion and now free contraception on demand, no-penalty divorce, loose sexual behavior and diversity celebration as cultural policy, — create an environment that the Catechism would call “a system of sin” where moral behavior is not likely to exist, and therefore economic lifts are not likely to emerge.

[Nifster]

Friedman is no libertarian. You obviously do not understand the nature of free markets. You can cite the ‘black ghetto’ all you want but none of what you blather on about has anything to do with being either excluded from society or a lack of compassion from the free markets. Your drivel doesn’t change the fact (and it is a fact) that free markets produce people who have the most freedom of choice and the most republican form of government.

if you wish a theocracy then move to a country that is run by a church

[annalex]

move to a country that is run by a church

I am free to vote where I am and do not intend to move.

If libertarian (or Friedman's) theory extends to poly-cultural crime- and government-infested pockets, and to international government-managed "trade" between the Third World and the First World then show me how. "You obviously don't understand", "move", and "drivel" are no substitutions for intelligent argument.

[JSteff]

Don’t confuse conservatism with bashing all anything related to capitalism.. like you were.

[Steelfish]

You and Limbaugh’s comments on Pope Francis appear to confuse capitalism with unbridled consumerism, crony capitalism, insider trading, stock manipulation etc and therefore give capitalism properly understood, a bad name. This is not what Sowell, Buckley and others believe in.

[Nifster]

Again Friedman never was a libertarian. You know so little and sound so pompous

[annalex]

The distinction (Chicago School/Libertarian) was never important to what I wrote, because the Pope never addressed monetary policy or other specifics. The Pope's ideas are contrary to libertarianism broadly. Friedman himself never resisted the libertarian characterization:

He said that he was a libertarian philosophically, but a member of the U.S. Republican Party for the sake of "expediency" ("I am a libertarian with a small 'l' and a Republican with a capital 'R.' And I am a Republican with a capital 'R' on grounds of expediency, not on principle.")

Milton Friedman (as a part of Libertarianism Series)

[Nifster]

and you missed his point completely.

Look the pope was very clear. You can decide that ‘ghettos’ in America are the fault of the free market if you want. It is historically and economically a false hood to say so. Go ahead and defend this jesuit all you want. He is not the friend of freedom nor of free markets

[RayChuang88]

I think what bothers a lot of people--including many American Catholics--is that the Pope never published the original Latin version of what he wrote. As such, we end up with a lot of translation issues, and an improper translation could mean the Pope's message ends up being wrongly interpreted.

Indeed, that is a problem that still vexes Bible scholars trying to do a decent modern language translation of the Bible from the original languages used for each Book of the Bible.

[JSteff]

capitalism with unbridled consumerism, crony capitalism, insider trading, stock manipulation et

That all rolls off your keyboard in such a scripted manner, you should submit it at the next shutdown (whatever city is the script) event and make them into signs for your anti capitalist crowd. Do you believe any of that leftist
Usually conservatives believe in a vibrant, economic daily reality. You obviously sit and see wrong in our economy to the point it is sickening. It is socialistic to the max and you should have learned different in grade school.

Sorry kid, you are annoying just as talking to my 11 year old grandson would be, but he knows what a profit is and knows all businesses need it to stay in business. You obviously did not get any of those lessons in 3rd grade.. yet.

As I think I conveyed in one of our earlier verbal checker matches (for most I say Chess matches), you are way past being tiring. Your anti-capitalistic dribble has gotten boring and annoying so I am done playing checkers.. or shuts and ladders don't bother to write back.

Forget the modern economics books, just read the books and writings of our founders. Subscribe to patriot post and you will receive their sayings every day in your email. They understood the need of profit and advancing ones station in life and it's need to advance their fellow countryman and the country as a whole. You seem to have missed all of it while on your commune or at the flop houses.

Sorry for you man.

[ek_hornbeck]

Pope Francis does seem to be taking his cues on many issues from the liberal wing of Roman Catholicism. Where Limbaugh is off the mark, however, is in assuming that criticism of laissez-faire capitalism by the Catholic Church is somehow unprecedented or restricted to a leftist fringe.

In fact, the Church has always emphasized communitarian values, charity, and social justice over individualism, and (in contrast to Calvinism, for instance) never equated acquisition of wealth with virtue. This is as much true of rightwing traditional Catholicism as it is of the renegade "liberation theology" Left. Distributism, social credit, and corporatism grew out of traditional Catholic social thought and criticism of laissez-faire.

[NYer]

Where Limbaugh is off the mark, however, is in assuming that criticism of laissez-faire capitalism by the Catholic Church is somehow unprecedented or restricted to a leftist fringe.

I take it you are a Rush listener. How many times over the years have we heard Rush comment on one of his purported quotes by the msm - "I never said that!". Yet, he had no compunctions in accepting "their" interpretation of what the pope said. Rush has been on holiday for the past few days ... time to research and absorb the catholic responses to his rant. Let's see how he responds tomorrow.

[annalex]

Free market is an accessory to the freedom of man. What passes for “free market” today, especially in the Third World has nothing to do with either economic or spiritual freedom, and the Pope is a realist, — because he is, you know, Catholic, — unlike various libertarian sloganeers.

[Nifster]

you make me laugh out loud.

sorry I am done with the silliness. enjoy your day

[annalex]

What do you find funny?

[annalex]

I know, difficult question. Here is a visual aid.

A Favela in Sao-Paulo

The people living in the foreground are unemployable as they are. Their personal work experience is crime, prostitution and picking city garbage. Their parents or grandparents worked sustenance agriculture. Their education is none or close to none. What theory, so you think, Limbaugh, Friedman and Co. have to give them gainful work, and how practical is their theory?

[michaelmas]

I don’t think he actually read the exhortation. When he supposedly quotes from it he’s reading someone else’s critique of it. Maybe he didn’t do his homework. Shocker.

[michaelmas]

He never condemns capitalism. He says that it will not work on its own. He disagreed that ‘trickle down’ economics would INEVITABLY benefit the poor. It’s not INEVITABLE. It still requires virtue of the individual. It requires someone to be as conscientious about helping those less fortunate than himself as he is about getting in line to buy the next gadget.

He never ‘makes clear’ that the poor are morally superior. He says they are crying out. How does the Pope condemn those with wealth, when it’s the people with wealth he’s appealing to in order to help the poor? He doesn’t tell those with wealth to put themselves in the poor house. You’re making a false dichotomy.

I agree with you, Jesus did not say that only the poor are going to heaven, but he did say the poor in spirit would. He wants us to be more selfless, that is not the same thing as saying he wants to feel guilty about our wealth. He wants us to do good things with it. This message has been consistent in the history of the Church.

[michaelmas]

He is focused on the log in the Roman eye. Although I wouldn’t say Roman, I would say human. He wants everyone in the world to be less selfish.