Catholics and Communists

American Thinker ^ | 12/3/13 | Daren Jonescu

[armydoc]

The Catholic Church's recent history of sympathizing with, and even supporting, Marxist progressivism is clear, sad, and indicative of a deeply irrational and anti-individual streak within the modern Church hierarchy. Catholics who care about the Church, its history, and its future -- and also about humanity, reason and freedom -- must stop making excuses for their current spiritual leadership's collectivist authoritarian impulses.

[Running On Empty]

Thank you, Black Elk

[DManA]

It’s on the Vatican’s own web site but we shouldn’t trust its accuracy. Check.

[Running On Empty]

Thank you, Mrs. Don-o

[Running On Empty]

Thank you, Dr. Sivana

[ek_hornbeck]

As I had remarked on another thread, traditional Catholicism has always been skeptical of radical laissez-faire, and has often emphasized communitarianism and social justice over individualism. Max Weber's book The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism highlights the cultural differences between Catholic and Protestant societies, and the social and economic differences that result.

The emphasis on communitarian concerns is not a recent perversion of renegade "liberation theologians," (though leftwing liberation theologians certainly exploit the false connection). You see anti-laissez-faire attitudes among some of the most conservative and traditional Catholics as well, who have championed distributism, falangism, corporatism, etc. as alternatives to both Marxist socialism and capitalism. Many libertarians falsely attribute any criticism of laissez-faire to Marxist influence, when in fact some of these ideologies boil down to advocacy of a kind of social order that predated capitalism and republican government.

[GOP_Party_Animal]

Since it’s private property, any individual Catholic parish can post notices that firearms are prohibited. I have never seen this, however, not even in the more liberal parishes I’ve been to. The Vatican takes no official stance, although I’m sure they would prefer people come unarmed.

[Iscool]

That’s why they advocate for social programs, regulations, and taxes that are ensured to make more people poor. Poverty is a blessing, and the bishops want more of it.

Especially the current pope...I'm waiting to see if he starts passing out his robes to the cold and needy...

[armydoc]

I have not seen any quotes, however, in which Pope Francis is calling for state-enforced redistribution of property as the solution to the vexations of poverty. I could have missed something that's out there, of course. Could you supply such a quote, with the accompanying paragraph for context?

As the essay suggests, Pope Francis has not openly advocated state enforced redistribution in so many words. It's very difficult, however, not to infer such a sentiment from Evangelii Gaudium:

While the earnings of a minority are grow¬ing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ide¬ologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Con¬sequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules. (56)

Now, what does he mean by "they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control"? Pope Francis certainly is too smart to put up such an obvious strawman to take his phrase "any form of control" literally. I know of no one advocating for capitalism without any governmental "control". Government enforced regulations to counter fraud, provide consumer health and safety protections, and ensure robust and fair competition are universally accepted as proper governmental activities. Additionally, the context of the paragraph is inequality. So, it's difficult not to deduce that the "control" of which he speaks is redistributional in nature. Finally, the problems he sees causing the inequality ("absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation") are factors that exacerbate wealth inequality by making the rich richer, not the poor poorer. So, the only additional type of government "control" which the government could apply which might decrease inequality would be "redistrubutional" type controls, be they overt transfer payments or covert redistribution such as minimum wage laws or price controls. Of course, we know those type of "controls" tend to hurt the poor disproportionately and exacerbate the situation

Understand that the charism of infallibility does not extend to papal diplomacy

Yes, that is understood. However, as V2 taught, every Papal teaching must be respected:

"This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme Magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking" (LG 25)

Peace to you as well, Mrs. D!

[Rashputin]

What I think is funny is that about a year ago American Thinker had an article about Jews almost all still supporting Barry and a bit about the long history of Jews in various Communist and Marxist movements/revolutions and they were very careful to make it clear they weren't talking about all Jews or the current socialist state of Israel.

When it's time for a little anti-Catholic red meat, though, the editors at AT don't seem to see any reason to not use a broad brush nor do the commentors on FR seem to mind joining hands with those who claim Jesus Christ is a fraud and all Christians, not just Catholic Christians, are drooling idiots taken in by the scam of Christianity.

I guess people who have sucked down revisionist history to the point they've never even heard of the violence and murder that Pinkerton's were guilty of while in the employ of poor little non-Capitalists like Dale Carnegie or what Baldwin-Felts was up to in Logan County W Va have also sucked down the current media machine command to go after the Catholic Church every way possible for opposing King Barry and not to let little things like the truth get in their way.

At least while folks who call themselves Conservative and Christian are solidly in the Obama camp when it comes to attacking Catholics and working hand in glove with anti-Christ cultists a good many folks who call themselves Liberal and Whatever who have long been blind enough to support Barry are waking up. With more people awake we may finally end up with folks who do more than complain and encourage infighting in their own ranks pushing back against Barry.

I'm sure the Chicago fascist crowd will finish running through the propaganda they used to spread the Klan in the twenties pretty soon, though, and we will then no doubt be entertained with articles rehashing the various dark conspiracies that were spread so effectively in Europe during the thirties.

At some point, all those conspiracy theories tie the evil Jooooz to the evil Papists and I'll be interested in seeing who thinks slanders and lies about Jews is acceptable religion forum fare the same way slanders and lies about Catholics are.

[x]

The joke about the old Partisan Review (which actually was Marxist, at least at the beginning) is that their office typewriters had keys with whole words like "alienation" on them.

Seems like the American Thinker's keyboards have a special key that just types out the whole word "Marxism." Really, it's not enough now to wildly accuse people of being socialists? They have to be whole-hog Karl Marxists nowadays?

Religions don't translate or divide directly into secular ideologies. There's alway some remainder that resists such oversimplifications.

So Catholicism or Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or Buddhism can't be reduced to laissez-faire capitalism in a simplistic fashion. They talk about different things and deal with matters that aren't reducible to economics or politics.

Only an idiot would conclude that that makes them Marxist.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Well, this was a well-spoken response, armydoc. I myself have been wondering why Pope Francis has been critiquing laissez-faire economics, arguing against those who oppose "any form" of government regulation, when there haven't been any actual laissez-faire national economies for the past 100 years or so, anywhere that I am aware of.

It's like articulately rebutting those who are "against any form of hydration" while all around you, everybody is chin-deep in flood water. Who, what, is he actually reacting against?

Still, I'd be careful with the inferences.

Without, as I say, analyzing the whole 48,000 word Apostolic Exhortation --- only a couple of paragraphs of which dealt with economic generalities --- I will say this: since I first started looking at this stuff decades ago, I have noticed that people infer "the state" where popes are saying "society."

For instance,

• "The social order must respond..."
• "We have an obligation to..." "
• "Mankind must not turn its back ..."
• "People must take responsibility for..."
• "Humanity is called to care for..."
• "Nations which have enjoyed great prosperity should..."
• And so forth.

None of these words means "the State." The social order, mankind, people, even nations, indicate civil society in all its dimensions, including myriad intermediary institutions: families, parishes, professional associations, businesses, nonprofits, labor organizations; philanthropic trusts, profit-making enterprises, fraternal and charitable societies, educators, entertainers, the news media,city-township-county governments, etc. etc.

In many "social justice" documents, particularly papal ones, you get a whole different sense if you consistently read the subject of the sentence, the subject of the "ought," as "society, not the state."

The mind is inspired by wide, exciting new vistas of -- the word is "subsidiarity."

A word I'd like to hear on a 50/50 basis with "solidarity.". Especially from Pope Francis.

[ek_hornbeck]

Second, excoriating raw capitalism does not imply supporting Marxism. There were economic systems before both Marx and Adam Smith. Even into the 20th Century, men like G.K. Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc were Distributists. They were arch-conservatives, and very anti-Marxist. The name alone, and a shallow reading on aspects of it would send some Freepers pointing "Marxist!"

This is certainly true. The Catholic Church was anti-capitalist in the 18th and 19th century because laissez-faire (classical liberalism) was associated with enlightenment secularism, and because the emergence of a wealthy business class challenged the power of Crown and Church alike.

To this day, a lot of traditional Catholics reject laissez-faire in favor of ideologies that more closely mirror medieval society's guild system and old social hierarchy. Distributism and Falangism are recent examples, as is the Patron system that has dominated Latin American societies.

I think it's important (for accuracy and honesty) to distinguish between the criticisms of capitalism and classical liberalism by traditional Catholics from those who use the Catholic communitarian tradition as a facade for warmed-over Marxism.

[Salvation]

Ditto!

[Zionist Conspirator]

Thank you for the ping.

Unfortunately, Americans tend to think that their ideological classifications apply all over the world. They do not.

Catholicism prefers an "organic society" such as existed in the Middle Ages. From this perspective capitalism is radical and leftist. So is individualism, for that matter. The traditional Catholic Right views not the individual, but the family, as the basic unit of society, and sees in the individualism American Protestant conservatives swear by the philosophy responsible for all our contemporary decadence.

It wasn't a leftist, but a French right winger, who said "The individual is nothing; society is everything."

[NKP_Vet]

JP2, B16 and yes Francis have all spoken out against liberation theology. Francis was exiled to the far reaches of Argentina as a result.

[NKP_Vet]

Devout Catholics pray for their Pope, they don’t constantly criticise him like protestants do.

[Arthur McGowan]

Some Popes are better than others.

[NKP_Vet]

You’re exactly right and the Church has made it 2,000 years with all different personalities and abilities from these popes.

[BlackElk]

I re-read the article and you are right. The Marxist marionette priest in question IS a South Korean who is a traitor to his country and more importantly to his Church and most importantly to the God Whom his priesthood ought to exist to serve.

A priest serving as a lackey and footstool of Kim Il Un (Comrade Baby Pork Fat) gives a whole new level of definition to the idea of the false "gods" whom the First Commandment requires us not to have before the one true God.

Thanks for the correction.