Posted on 12/09/2013 2:43:18 PM PST by NYer
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..so “separated brethren” retain a “fair portion of the truth”? Who decides just what that fair portion actually consists of? Everything the Catholic Church teaches and believes is anathema to non-catholics. Please name for me one thing that the RCC considers “fair portion” of the truth that non-catholics “retain”.
The Catholic baseline is a valid Trinitarian Baptism—this was hashed out in the 4th century during the Donatist controversy. To manage to have retained a valid Baptism generally requires a certain respect for other things that Christ passed on. For example, it is not unusual to find non-Catholics who still hold to the Church teaching that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.
I don’t think that all non-Catholics find these beliefs abhorrent.
Good point. As far as I can ascertain, here is Spellman's chronology:
1977 - (born)
1991-1992 - (age 15) missionary with Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa in Uganda
1994-2000 - (age 17-23) missionary with Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa in Hungary
2000 - (age 24) enrolled at Westminster Seminary California
2003 - (age 27) expelled from Calvary Chapel
2004 - (age 28) received an M.Div. from Westminster Seminary California
2004 - (age 28) Ordained in PCA denomination, "planted" Exile Presbyterian Church in the Seattle area
2011 - (age 35) served as PCA prosecutor in "Federal Vision" trial of PCA pastor Peter Leithart
2012 - (age 36) resigned pastoral ordination in PCA denomination
2012 - (age 36) converted to Catholicism
Is this your understanding, Iscool, or Cynical Bear? Is this the “portion of the truth” that we non-catholics possess? As far as the “inerrant Word of God”, yes, this would be a start. IF Catholics truly believed that, and did not put their stock into the Church’s extra biblical doctrines, traditions that make up the RCC. Traditions are on an equal standing with Scripture, according to the RCC. So, once again,when we dig deeper, we find that we in no way agree with this.
There's heresy there too ... a ton.
First of all, the words “for example” indicate that much more may be possessed, and that it may be possible to possess a fair bit without possessing this particular bit.
Secondly, yes Catholics are required to believe that Scripture is Inerrant, and to deny this position is to be a heretic.
If you want details on what Catholics are required to believe, here are two documents for you:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19900524_theologian-vocation_en.html
http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfadtu.htm
Paragraphs 5 and 11 contain much, but include holding everything in Scripture. If someone holds some of these teachings, they certainly have something.
That seems to be part of the problem with the RCC doesn’t it? If they don’t hold scripture as the ultimate authority then it becomes one man’s word over another. The Catholics, the Mormons, Islam, and others claim they have what God really meant and have added what God added after He said don’t add anything.
Paragraphs 5 and 11 of the second document.
I hesitate to agree with anything the Catholic Church says they believe. I can say I believe in the virgin birth but that means something totally different than when a Catholic says it. I can say communion of saints but it means something different than when Catholics say it. Asking me to agree with anything the Catholic Church says is asking for a long discussion of what the Catholic means when they say anything.
For that matter, there isn’t a real point in going around a “measuring” who holds what percentage of the truth, so the Church doesn’t go around measuring. A few distinctions are made on the Sacramental level—Baptism vs. no Baptism is the most basic, but there is also recognition of a distinction between folks like the Orthodox, with valid Holy Order, and those who do not have Bishops in the Catholic understanding of the term.
IMHO, very good point.
Exactly what heresy are you speaking about?
On whose authority is this heresy pronounced?
(It is on right now -- Monday evening, 8 PM Eastern -- and can be seen at EWTN.COM "Television" U.S. online streaming.)
And that is the great gulf between us. Words MEAN something. And any thinking person would study the scriptures to see if those things which were being taught were so, according to GOD. So do away with everything that MAN has written, and you are left with one priceless item: God’s Word of Truth. There just is no way around this. Either He has given to us His revelation to man, or He is piece-mealing it together, and giving it out in doses. And this from the Creator of the Universe, who desires above all else, to be reconciled to man through the finished work of Christ.
I don't even believe we agree on what makes the Trinity...But no, we don't agree on that...We don't even agree what the bible is...
There may be some Protestants who agree with them but I am not one of those...
IOW, you agree with...yourself.
Not this old chestNUT again.
Catholics sure seem to like making celebrities of the few Protestants who move across the Tiber. Yet, I’m always impressed by the number of former Catholics whom I constantly meet in our own church.
Don’t worry about them. They will be back to the Catholic Church before long.
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