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To: Gamecock
OK, I'll bite:

If the New Testament has reaffirmed a commandment, then it is still in force for us today.

The whole of Torah was reaffirmed in the New Testament, right out of the lips of Yeshua:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(e-Sword:KJV)

11 posted on 01/07/2014 3:00:04 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

So your contention is that there is a contradiction?


12 posted on 01/07/2014 3:06:35 PM PST by Gamecock (Celebrating 20,000 posts of dubious quality.)
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To: roamer_1
The whole of Torah was reaffirmed in the New Testament

Why is it we hardly ever hear you under the law guys say "Old Testament? It is always "Torah." Is it because you guys don't believe there is a New Testament?

By the way, verse 17 in the passages you cited is the key to verse 19. The New Testament doesn't promoting unrighteousness and ungodliness. There is a difference in living a righteous life because of an external law, and, having being regenerated by Christ within, living a righteous life because one's very nature has been changed.

18 posted on 01/07/2014 5:03:00 PM PST by sasportas
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To: roamer_1

****one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.****

Are you saying that all of the law was not fulfilled by Christ?

Also at the time he spoke, the law was not fulfilled yet. Was he admonishing the crowd to continue in the current format until he completed his work?

Look carefully at your bold section. Notice that the warning he gives is to the status in heaven. Is he saying that after I complete my work you who are teaching that the law is now already not in effect can still be in heaven?

In my opinion this was a stop gap measure by Christ to stop any premature conclusions from having people decide to live as if he had completed his mission and then die before he could do so therefore still rendering them under the law.

Notice that he did not say the people who taught the breaking of the commandments before he completed his work were false teachers. Perhaps premature and to be forgiven and let into the kingdom, but warned that it would cost them.


21 posted on 01/07/2014 5:28:13 PM PST by ResponseAbility (The truth of liberalism is the stupid can feel smart, the lazy entitled, and the immoral unashamed)
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To: roamer_1; Gamecock

“The whole of Torah was reaffirmed in the New Testament”


Indeed, we had this fight before. The idea that we ought to be under the “whole of Torah”, however, was entirely crushed by the Apostles, as demonstrated at the first church council. The sect of believing Pharisees insisted that circumcision AND the law of Moses ought to be entirely kept (IOW, faith + works):

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

To which Peter replies, asserting that we are under grace, not law:

“And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”
(Act 15:7-11)

And if by grace, it is no more works of the law:

Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

As salvation, if it must include both faith and obedience to the law of Moses, must be kept perfectly:

Gal_3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

And therefore, no flesh can be justified by the law. Hence the final decision by the church sent out, declaring that “no such commandment” had ever been given for them to be under the law of Moses, and, rather than giving that commandment now, warn them off of fornication, and from meat sacrificed to idols, etc., only:

“And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”
(Act 15:23-29)

Though, the abstaining from “meats offered to idols,” ought to be understood as only to avoid causing dissension with the unconverted Jews, or those who, being weak in the faith, still insist on them:

1Co_8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

“Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.”
(Rom 14:1-3)

Though, it is not a matter of law that any meat should be abstained from, as all creatures are from God, and are fit to eat, even those purchased from the markets which had been offered to idols, provided they are received with thanksgiving, and do not cause another to stumble:

“All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth. Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: For the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof. If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof: Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man’s conscience?” (1Co 10:23-29)


24 posted on 01/07/2014 6:27:55 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: roamer_1

Not trying to argue but I am curious as to what you mean by “The whole of Torah was reaffirmed in the New Testament, right out of the lips of Yeshua”

By “whole of Torah was reaffirmed” are you implying Christians should follow all of the things proscribed by the OT such as stoning. Just asking.


26 posted on 01/07/2014 7:43:32 PM PST by plain talk
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