What fulfillment? Christ's own fulfillment of it? Is that what you mean? BESIDES --- I did not speak of "fulfillment of Law" as you put it, but rather was pointing towards Christ's own words as to fulfillment of all righteousness.
Neither did I ask "what the [Roman] Catholic position" was, pertaining to either.
The link you offer for a finding out of that, in regards to "Law" anyway(?) --- leads to one of your own articles --- which cannot help but be not exactly what the [Roman] Catholic "position" is in regards to "Law" and it's fulfillment, but rather instead is your own discourse upon the subject! That is, unless you speak for the [Roman] Catholic ecclesiastical community. Do you? Yes -- or no.
If perhaps not infallibly, then by all means let us proceed with that understanding held somewhat loosely in mind, for doing so could make this easier on all of us.
If there is anything in what I wrote to you which may be less than clear as to where I myself may stand, as to what fulfillment of the Law righteousness meant in context in which I placed it -- please feel free to ask. Perhaps we could even -- find some ready agreement there.
For it was Christ who submitted Himself to the Baptism of John, as recounted in Matthew 3:15 "Let it be so now; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness", with my intended own meanings, the very reasons I make mention of this, being contained in my previous comment.
If you could provide some indication or further sense to me that you grasped the significance of what was laid out there (in that note), then perhaps we could go on from there..?
I mean here also, after which it can be established that you understand what it is I had said, even in regard to Exodus 2:25 also then we can possibly get around to discussion concerning [Roman] "Catholic position", as to fulfillment of "the Law" (as I said "possibly").
Until that time may I suggest that we all of us, one and all (myself included) do not delude ourselves if we take up tools to "work" stones into altars --- that after having done so mistake our own handiwork for being fitting altars to make sacrifice unto God upon.
By which I mean -- let us again here not mistake ourselves for being Him, or much speaking for Him unless we be prophets raised up by His own hand, not our own, nor running too far ahead and beyond whatever commission we may have received from Him.
Meanwhile, we can talk, we can speak, yet again taking care to not mistake our own understanding for being = His Word.
Is this too much to ask?
Do you consider Paul’s letters polemics?
From your link, it seems that you may not yet have a revelation of the New Covenant. Read carefully Paul’s letters, especially Galatians, Ephesians, and Colossians. This is the greatest revelation ever given mankind. I could cite a plethora of scriptures on the Believers’ position, but you need to get free from legalism before you can enjoy relationship.
Jesus did not manifest in the flesh, suffer both physically and spiritually, setting aside centuries of religious tradition and law THAT NOBODY COULD KEEP EXCEPT JESUS, and that made nobody righteous, to set up yet another cumbersome religious system that traps people yet again in guilt, legalism, and condemnation. Its a very sad existence that plagues most of organized Christianity.
Rightly divide the Word - If you will have ears to hear this message, it will forever free you from legalism and ignite your fellowship with God.
Matthew 5:20 (KJV)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. >>>> This was an UNOBTAINABLE standard. Jesus said these harsh sayings in Matt 5 to provoke the Jews to realize they MUST HAVE a Savior. Also, to make them realize that any attempt on their own was FUTILE. Note that these harsh sayings - cut off hand, pluck out eye, exceed the Pharisees in righteousness, are NOT repeated in the letters to the Church.
Romans 3:20 (AMP)
20 For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law. For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character]. >>>> Paul confirms that the Law existed to expose sin, to make men realize that they HAD to have a Savior.
Romans 3:27-28 (AMP)
27 Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith.
28 For we hold that a man is justified and made upright by faith independent of and distinctly apart from good deeds (works of the Law). [The observance of the Law has nothing to do with justification.] >>>> There is NOTHING you can do to earn Salvation. Jesus did it all. See Abraham, he was declared righteous because he BELIEVED God before the Law even existed. (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:1-3) It is our faith that pleases the Father. (Hebrews 11:6)
What about the Law for Believers?
1 Timothy 1:8-10 (AMP)
8 Now we recognize and know that the Law is good if anyone uses it lawfully [for the purpose for which it was designed],
9 ****Knowing and understanding this: that the Law is not enacted for the righteous (the upright and just, who are in right standing with God),**** but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who strike and beat and [even] murder fathers and strike and beat and [even] murder mothers, for manslayers,
10 [For] impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers—and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrine >>>> The Law is not for the righteous. It is for the ungodly to recognize sin and repent! The Believer was declared righteous by faith - past tense. (Romans 5) There is now no condemnation, and the law of spirit and life has freed Believers from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8)
God deals with His children differently under the New Covenant. Are you a child of God? (Romans 8:13-15)
Hebrews 10:16-17 (AMP)
16 This is the agreement (testament, covenant) that I will set up and conclude with them after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their hearts, and I will inscribe them on their minds (on their inmost thoughts and understanding),
17 He then goes on to say, And their sins and their lawbreaking I will remember no more.
Hebrews 8:10 (AMP)
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their minds, even upon their innermost thoughts and understanding, and engrave them upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
What “laws” are imprinted?
John 13:34-35 (AMP)
34 I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another.
35 By this shall all [men] know that you are My disciples, if you love one another [if you keep on showing love among yourselves].
1 John 3:23 (AMP)
23 And this is His order (His command, His injunction): that we should believe in (put our faith and trust in and adhere to and rely on) the name of His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah), and that we should love one another, just as He has commanded us.
These two verses are not talking about Leviticus 19:18 - love your neighbor as you love yourself. How many folks truly love themselves the way Jesus loves them? I know it was a struggle for me. This refers to a divine love. The God-kind of love frees you from all bitterness, guilt, false humility, strife, pride, selfishness etc. When you love this way, you will obviously not steal, kill, lie etc. No moral system, no religious laws, can be more pure and unselfish than Love (Agape), the God-kind of love. It is Holy Spirit driven love. And Love is a wonderful motivator.
****The law tells you to love your wife, The Holy Spirit dwelling in you shows you how.****
Let that message sink in. Loving out of the flesh is impossible. With the Holy Spirit, Love is not only possible, its enjoyable! Forgiveness is possible. Giving is possible. The Blessing flows through you so you can now be a Blessing to the world. The HS empowers you to do God’s Perfect Will for you, and its not work, its LIFE! Its Blessing, its Joy, its Love! Its ZOE, the Life and Light of God, flowing from the vine through the branch and producing GOOD fruit.
Romans 5:19-21 (AMP)
19 For just as by one man’s disobedience (failing to hear, heedlessness, and carelessness) the many were constituted sinners, so by one Man’s obedience the many will be constituted righteous (made acceptable to God, brought into right standing with Him).
20 ****But then Law came in, [only] to expand and increase the trespass [making it more apparent and exciting opposition].**** But where sin increased and abounded, grace (God’s unmerited favor) has surpassed it and increased the more and superabounded,
21 So that, [just] as sin has reigned in death, [so] grace (His unearned and undeserved favor) might reign also through righteousness (right standing with God) which issues in eternal life through Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) our Lord. >>>> Whoa! Look at verse 20 - the law increased sin. Are you saying that the Law increases sin? I’m not, but Paul under the anointing did. So putting on your thinking cap for a moment, what do you suppose will happen if you attempt to keep the law now, or get sucked into legalism? Do I need to spell it out? Satan will whip you worse than Job with doubt, condemnation, and fear. If you don’t understand righteousness, and attempt to establish your own on works, or whatever religion dreams up, you will forever wonder if you are good enough. You are also guilty of pride, thinking that you know a better way to earn Salvation than God!
You can attend every service, every mass, tithe, give gifts to charity, pray 7 times a day, grovel at the alter saying “I’m not worthy” 7 times a day, volunteer, teach, and even bring a covered dish to the church supper, none of that will make you righteous. It is futile and only leads to frustration - I know I have been there, have the certificates and cancelled checks to prove it.
By attempting to establish righteousness by works, you are saying that what Jesus did was insufficient. And even worse, you are missing out on God’s Grace, Favor, Freedom, and Fellowship. It is God’s overwhelming desire to treat everyone like sin never existed. He can’t do that if you don’t believe His promises and accept what Jesus did as ALL sufficient for you for ALL Eternity. Pride is the biggest stumbling block. Because it takes humility to admit that you can do nothing without Jesus. It takes a changed heart to truly cast ALL your cares on him knowing how much He loves you.
To borrow from mythology, religion (all the silly things of the flesh that men dream up to impress God and each other) is like Sisyphus, pushing the boulder up the hill, never ever quite reaching the top, only to see it roll back down every day. Relax, its not your job. Jesus has done it all. He gets ALL the Glory. God has lifted you up and adopted you into the family, you are a joint heir with Jesus, part of the Body of Christ, an Ambassador of Christ, sitting with Jesus, Blessed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places. Its a position of strength and honor, and you did NOTHING to earn it. If you read, and really get the revelation of Ephesians, there should be such joy in your spirit you may just turn a little charismatic in spite of any religious snobbery.
How about a human analogy - If the Smith family gives all they have to adopt a child, and the court finalizes the adoption, the child becomes a member of the Smith family for all eternity - with all the rights and privileges associated with that name. Is there anything that the child could do to earn or merit that name. No! He is a Smith - entitled to all the love and favor that comes from being a part of that family. The child may be totally ignorant of his inheritance, or the depth of love and sacrifice made by his parents. He may have to drink ‘spiritual milk’ before he can eat the ‘meat’, but it all belongs to him even in ignorance.
Let’s look at the Prodigal Son who squandered his wealth and wanted to become a servant in his Father’s house - to earn his way back in. Dad didn’t even hear his request. The son could DO NOTHING to earn his place. He was the lost son, and fellowship was immediately restored - ring, coat, and a celebration. The older son resented his father’s grace - he had played by the rules, done the ‘works’. The same love and fellowship was available to the older son, but he never appreciated or requested it. All that the Father had was his!
Romans 3:31 (AMP)
31 Do we then by [this] faith make the Law of no effect, overthrow it or make it a dead letter? Certainly not! On the contrary, we confirm and establish and uphold the Law.
Uphold - to hold in high regard, esteem - not adhering to. Its a mountain too high to climb. Trying to keep the law is an insult to what Jesus did for you. If you think you can conquer that mountain, you do not esteem it, or hold it in high regard. People of faith know - its too big, too perfect to keep. Law was perfect, holy, flawless - so we could not keep it. We HAVE to have a Savior who could - see Matthew 5:20 above.
God’s LIVING WORD is GOOD NEWS! Religion is the enemy’s best friend, keeping people trapped and cut off from fellowship with their Heavenly Father and His Word. And as proven by history, religion leads to all sorts of unspeakable evil done in the name of God. We must worship God the way He wants - in Spirit and Truth. (John 4:23-24) If Jesus is your Lord, you can enjoy being in the family and enter into His REST. (Hebrews 4)
Sorry for the “polemic,” but somebody reading this thread needed to hear this. And if even one person is saved from religious bondage - God gets all the Glory, not me. It is His Word.
You guys just refuse to learn...
I sometimes follow these links but unlike Catholics, I actually check out the scriptures that are referenced in the articles while guys apparently just forge ahead thru the fog thinking you really learned something...
Are we still under a Law? Yes. However, we are not under the Mosaic one.
This is nonsense...There are approx 613 laws and they are included in the Mosaic Laws...
At this time, Christ came to redeem humanity (Hebrews 9:15) and to universalize the Law and open it up to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28, Romans 11:11)
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Absolutely nothing in these verses about continuing under the Law...
None of this means that we are now apart from a Law.
Yes, of course it does...
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
He also positively referenced the Law in Luke 10:25-28. A lawyer asked what is required to "inherit eternal life," and Christ asked the man to look to the Law. The lawyer said that the Law commands us to "love [Him] with all [our] heart, and with all [our] soul, and with all [our] strength, and with all [our] mind; and [our] neighbor as [ourself]." Christ replied, "You have answered correctly; do this and you will live."
That's right...Before the Crucifixion...Jesus was a Jew under the Law, teaching Jews who were also under the OT Law...
Paul did not, however, reject the necessity of good works. When Paul denounces "works of the Law," he is referring to things such as ritual circumcision.
For salvation??? Paul most certainly did...You will not find in scripture anywhere that Paul was talking about ritual circumcision...You guys made it up...
Passages like Romans 3:27-30 and Galatians 3:27-29, which are surrounded by statements that seem to advocate "faith alone," are key to understanding Paul's thoughts. Paul placed emphasis on the facts that Jews and Gentiles 1) serve the same God, 2) share a common heritage, and 3) are judged by the same general standards -- we are all "one in Christ Jesus". That is partially why he so strongly insisted on the universality of Christ, the importance of faith, and the worthlessness of divisive cultural practices (e.g. circumcision).
I should say so...Those statement don't just seem to advocate 'faith alone'...He is clearly speaking about 'faith alone'...
Does the existence of a Law always "nullify the grace of God" or mean that "Christ died needlessly" (Galatians 2:21)? Absolutely not.
Absolutely not??? Now that's a flat out lie if I ever saw one...Your religion is flat out lying to your face...
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
This author is telling you the scripture is exactly the opposite of what it says...Incredulous...
If He did not provide us with a path to redemption and salvation, then His justice would demand our damnation. To provide us with a Law is merciful of Him.
Of course Jesus provided a way...It's called:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Truly, "what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God" (1 Corinthians 7:19) and "unless [our] righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, [we] will not enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:20).
I got news for ya...Your righteousness will never come close to the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees...You don't have a chance in Hell, of not going to Hell if you are counting on your own righteousness...
That verse wasn't written to any Christian...It was written to Jews, born and living under the Law who couldn't eat certain meat, who had to worship on Saturday, and all the other things that pertain to those under the Law...There's not a Christian any where near that bunch...
This all undermines the idea that we are not bound by a Law. The Law will not fail (Matthew 5:18, Luke 16:17). We are still under a Law, minus Mosaic cultural practices.
What ignorance...Under those 613 laws the cultural laws are just a portion...
That leaves a whole lotta laws that you have to deal with...And if you violate just one, you're sunk...
"[H]e who does the will of [God]" will reach Heaven (Matthew 7:21), and God will say, "Depart from me," to those who "practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:23).
There's no doubt in my mind that not a single one of you believes what God's will is even tho its been pointed out countless times from the scriptures on these threads...And you certainly won't find it in the book of Matthew...
You have rejected everything Jesus taught Paul to pass on to the church...