Posted on 03/18/2014 2:14:03 AM PDT by markomalley
I was asked to go to a neighboring parish and address some fundamental questions related to the necessity of the Church. Many today question the need for a church or The Church and claim they can have Jesus without the Church. And thus the fundamental question “Who needs the Church?” ought to be addressed.
I propose here a rather more doctrinal answer to the question and hope tomorrow to offer a more personal answer. But, the fundamental answer I offer to “Who needs the Church?” is that everyone does, because the Church is the Body of Christ.
To the related questions “Why do I need to come to Church?” and “How can the Church possibly be relevant to me?” the fundamental answer is because it is in the Church that Jesus is first and foremost to be found.
I. To those who reject that anything special is to be found in the Church that cannot be found elsewhere Jesus says,
II. To those who say, “I can have Jesus without the Church,” I say “no can do.” For the Church is the body of Christ and it pertains to the head of a living Body to be found with his body, not apart from it. That the Church is the Body of Christ is clear in many Scriptures such as
Hence, Christ the Head cannot be had or found apart from his Body the Church.
III. To those who say, “I can read my Bible alone,” it must be said that there would be no Bible if it were not for the Church. Jesus didn’t write a book. He founded a community he called “My Church” (Matt 16) and sent them to “Teach all that I have commanded” (Matt 28:20).
Of course it would be silly to have things depend solely on a book in the ancient world when almost no one could read, and even those who could, could scarcely afford books, which all had to be hand-copied prior to the invention of the printing press.
Further, the Bible is a Church book and is meant to be read in the context of Church life. Scripture itself warns: Our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16). In effect Peter goes on to warn them to read Scripture in conformity with the Church.
IV. To those who say “I can watch Church on TV,” I say “Yes, but you can’t get Holy Communion on TV!” which as we saw above is essential if we are to have life in us.
Neither can we be in that place “wherever two or three are gathered” and thus be there where Jesus says he is, by sitting at home in front of a TV.
Neither can we have real fellowship, as Scripture admonishes us to do, by watching at home. And let us consider how to spur one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. (Hebrews 10:24-25)
Nor can we fulfill most of the vision of the life of the early Christians, who, as Scripture says, devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to the prayers (Acts 2:42)
V. To those who say, “I like Jesus but I can’t stand the Church, with all those hypocrites,” but Jesus was found in strange places, among sinners. So much so that he scandalized the Pharisees. Jesus ate with tax collectors, prostitutes, and other sinners and unsavory characters. Even his best followers, the apostles, had great character defects.
The fact is, if you reject the company of sinners you’re going to have a hard time finding Jesus who is found among sinners, sinners that he loves and calls his brethren, As Scripture says, For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, “I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters; in the assembly I will sing your praises.” (Heb 2:11-12)
So Jesus is found in the assembly of sinners and loves them. It is a strange disconnect to say to Jesus, “I love you but I hate the people you love and call your brethren; I just refuse to consort with them.”
Considering too that sinners are joined to Christ as members of his body, think of the strange logic in going to someone and saying, “I love and respect you, but I can’t stand your body. It is ugly and awful. I want to be with you, but I hate your body, I just can’t endure it. I will relate to you, but not your body.” This sort of talk is absurd and disrespectful.
VI. To those who say “It’s the institution of the Church I object to, not the Body of Christ,” sorry, but bodies are not abstractions. They have parts and functions. They require a head with executive functions as well as other parts and members with other functions. Neither is the Body of Christ an abstraction. It must have headship and governance along with other members and parts having various roles and functions.
Further, the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, and the Epistles all talk a LOT about “institutional aspects” such as offices and structures:
1. There are offices like apostles, bishops, priests, deacons, catechists, administrators, etc.
2. There are Councils that issue binding documents and interpretations considered authoritative (e.g., the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15).
3. There is an insistence by the apostles as to their authority on numerous occasions.
4. Each local Church is overseen by a priest or bishop (Acts 14:23; Titus 1:5).
5. There are disciplinary functions such as excommunication, disciplining of the clergy and faithful, etc. (1 Cor 5; Matt 18:17).
6. There are sacraments being celebrated and certain norms associated with them (e.g., 1 Cor 11).
7. There are liturgical norms being promulgated (e.g., 1 Cor 14).All of these “institutional” aspects are necessary and biblical. They are not some medieval addition, or “tradition of men.” They are right there at the beginning as the Scriptures attest.
VII. To those who say that the Church is irrelevant, outdated, and arrogant because it does not reflect the modern age or most of its members, it must be pointed out that the Church does not exist to reflect the views of its members, but to articulate the views and truths of her head and founder, Jesus Christ. Her mandate from Jesus is to make disciples from all the nations teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. (Mat 28:20).
And the Holy Spirit admonishes every Bishop through St. Paul: I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. (2 Tim 4:1-5)
Therefore the Catholic Church is the enduring, visible presence of Jesus Christ in the World. It is the Body of Christ who still walks this earth preaching, teaching, healing, forgiving, feeding, admonishing sinners, consoling the repentant, being loved but also hated, being appreciated but also persecuted. The Church is not an institution; it is the Body of Christ, and also his Beautiful Bride; for in marriage the two become one. You cannot have Christ without the Church. You cannot have the groom without his Bride. You cannot have the head without his Body. You cannot love the one and despise or be indifferent to the other. Jesus is first and foremost to be found with his Body, the Church.
Yes, the Church is the enduring, visible yet spiritual, structured yet Spirit-led, human yet divine presence of Jesus Christ in the World today. To the scoffers who set up false dichotomies Jesus says, “Saul, Saul why are you persecuting me?!”
Who needs the Church? You might as well ask, “Who needs Jesus?”
wrong once again...you know, as well as I do that the Catholic Church is the ONE TRUE HOLY APOSTOLIC CATHOLIC church on Earth...you may have left it, but that doesn't change her credentials. The denominations that you speak of sprang off of the true church because mere mortals decided that they knew more about establishing a church than Christ did...
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
The conclusion is a non sequitur:
"Therefore, the Catholic Church . . ."
Where in the Bible does it equate the Body of Christ with the Catholic Church?
No, not wrong once again, Metmom is speaking the truth. You can believe your religion is the "one, true, holy, apostolic" and ONLY church established by Jesus Christ all you want but it doesn't make it true or you right. A closer look at that kind of claim would prove that the Roman Catholic Church is:
1. Not "one" - there is PLENTY of disunity among the various rites that fall under the umbrella of "Catholic". Least of all, the Eastern Orthodox who split from the Roman church nearly a thousand years ago over some pretty major doctrinal differences and who have not made any move towards reunifying. Even among Roman Catholics today, there are varying degrees of disagreement over doctrines and dogmas - clergy included.
2. Not "true" - because the Roman Catholic Church has strayed from the Biblical doctrines that defined genuine Christianity and substituted man made and invented dogmas in the place of the truths Jesus and the Apostles taught from the start.
3. Not "holy" - certainly even Roman Catholics will admit that a big part of the membership is CINO (Catholic in Name Only). The rest of them won't even testify to an assurance of their OWN salvation because they don't count themselves as redeemed yet. Sure they strive towards holiness - all within their own efforts and merits - but few have received the righteousness of Christ in their stead and know they are holy because Christ is holy FOR them - salvation being by grace through faith and not of works.
4. Not "apostolic" because the Roman Catholic religion teaches as essential for salvation doctrines and dogmas never heard of in the writings of the Apostles and those who God used to pen sacred Scripture. The Roman Catholic Church presumptuously asserts the right to determine what is or is not the truth of the Christian faith and their claims to teach "what has always and everywhere been believed by all" is provably false. Though there is a claim to infallibility of the Popes, things one declared was de fide another later on called heresy. Papal bulls and encyclicals written in one century were trashed by a different pope later.
The "credentials" heralded by Roman Catholics of today are really based upon myths, faux-traditions, forged and fabricated documents, use of the sword of government to force submission, destruction of writings that disputed claims and, maybe, a smidgen of truth mixed in to hold on to an appeal to being Christian. "Mere mortals" were the real perpetrators of what bills itself today as the one, true church established by Jesus Christ when anyone who objectively looks at the writings of the earliest early church "fathers" would see that the church was made up of local assemblies of believers in Christ who followed His teachings and those that His disciples passed down to them through their Holy Spirit inspired letters and epistles.
How a church of Jesus Christ was recognized back then is how one is today - they uphold and support the rule of the Christian faith - NOT based upon power-hungry leaders, but humble servants of Christ who led by their OWN lifestyles in submission to the Holy Spirit and were examples of personal holiness. NO religious organization today can lay claim to being THE church - it is a SPIRITUAL house being built up with living stones of which are individual believers. The TRUE body of Christ consists of ALL the saved who hear the Shepherd's voice and follow Him. He knows His own and they know Him. That is why a congregation/assembly can be made up of two or more believers who come together to worship, learn, share, edify, evangelize and live as lights in the darkness of a dying world drawing souls to Christ, the Life-giver. Christ's body IS one and it IS holy and it IS true. His bride is adorned in white linen, washed in HIS precious blood - not the rags of works-righteousness so many religions insist they are.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God and salvation is by grace through faith in Christ.
No denomination or religious system is needed for a personal encounter with the Living Jesus.
You can get saved in your living room while reading the Bible and praying.
Nonsense. It's their opinion, nothing else.
Their say so doesn't make it a fact.
Lots of cults claim to be the OTC.
Which one should we believe?
Catholics?
Mormons?
Roodites?
Borg?
Jim Jones?
SDA?
JW's?
There's lots of options for people claiming to the the OTC with their special, given to nobody else but them, divine revelation that God (conveniently) left out of Scripture, but also (conveniently) happened to reveal to each group that claims its own flavor of extra-Biblical divine special revelation.
Whether it's golden books or *sacred tradition*. Doesn't matter. It's all the same.
It's Satan's continuing lie of *Did God REALLY say.....?
The denominations that you speak of sprang off of the true church because mere mortals decided that they knew more about establishing a church than Christ did...
That statement alone also condemns the Catholic church because it makes the same claims. Men in the church claim to know more than God so have the cutzpah to do things like change wording in translating the Bible and renaming Mary from *mother of Jesus* to *mother of God*.
Preach it, sister!!!
Amen!!!
The Holy Church is primarily people keeping company with Jesus; certain aesthetic that is present there and not in your living room is a corollary of that divine presence. The silly point about “fan club” is that it equated Jesus Christ with a pop musician. That is deeply offensive to serious people. This is also a typical Protestant mentality, whether you “claim” Protestantism or not. Get rid of it; it is killing your soul. That is what I am trying to get through to you about.
The domestic Church is indeed important if it is in communion with the Catholic Church. If the Church Domestic is denying the Church Catholic, there is a problem in your home; find another.
I'd rather be where the Holy Scripture commands me to be.
II. To those who say, “I can have Jesus without the Church,” I say “no can do.” For the Church is the body of Christ and it pertains to the head of a living Body to be found with his body, not apart from it. That the Church is the Body of Christ is clear in many Scriptures such as
- Jesus is the head of the body the Church (Col 1:8)
- Now you are the body of Christ, each one of you is a part of it. (1 Cor 12:27)
- For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ (Rom 12:4-6)
Hence, Christ the Head cannot be had or found apart from his Body the Church.
III. To those who say, “I can read my Bible alone,” it must be said that there would be no Bible if it were not for the Church. Jesus didn’t write a book. He founded a community he called “My Church” (Matt 16) and sent them to “Teach all that I have commanded” (Matt 28:20).
Of course it would be silly to have things depend solely on a book in the ancient world when almost no one could read, and even those who could, could scarcely afford books, which all had to be hand-copied prior to the invention of the printing press.
Further, the Bible is a Church book and is meant to be read in the context of Church life. Scripture itself warns: Our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16). In effect Peter goes on to warn them to read Scripture in conformity with the Church.
Thanks for your advice. I understand it was free and worth every penny I paid. No thanks, once free I’m not going back into spiritual slavery. Your choice is yours.
Jesus ate and drank with sinners and was called a drunkard and glutton by the prevailing religious leaders because he didn't perform the way they had decided He should.
Much like the Catholic church which makes Jesus untouchable to the very folks Jesus came for.
We certaainly don't make Jesus untouchable, you do. We recieve Jesus, body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Eucharist every day. Jesus established a church on the Apostles, He and they decided how it was to be operated and the Catholic church has been doing so for over 2,000 years. About 1,550 years after those events, men came along and decided to change things....the bread and wine, to them, were merely representative of Christ.....O.K., I guess, you eat your bread and wine, I'll recieve Christ Himself in the Eucharist....
I don’t eat Jesus over and over again to receive Him and have Him be in me temporarily.
He’s already living in me and is there for good.
Catholics are the ones who can’t touch Him with their hands.
You know that we eat Him, right?
Angry at something?
Not in the least, quite happy actually. It’s just fun to tweak people who see fit to attack me and my beliefs.
BTW, what part of the Bible describes your rosary?
My last experience in church the pastor dressed up like doris day and sang a song on a Sunday eve get together. I challenged him as to how that honored God. After several efforts to misdirect me he told me it was fellowship. I told him I could get better fellowship at the bar. I was then told by the church council I should not be talking to the pastor.
Most churches are just club houses. At most there might be one or maybe 3 there to honor God but I don’t have time to find them. Easier to find Gods people outside of church.
Finally, a thoughtful question. Thank you.
The Rosary consists of repeated prayers to Our Father (Matthew 6:9-13), Hail Mary and Glory Be.
Hail Mary combines the address of Archangel Michael to Our Lady (Luke 1:28), the greeting of Our Lady by Elizabeth (Luke 1:42) and a petition to her asking for her prayers now and at the hour of our death; that part recalls the presence of Our Lady at the foot of the Cross (John 19:26-27) as it identifies us with the Disciple.
Glory Be repeats our Trinitarian belief in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit Who created this eternal world; it continues with a petition to Christ to save us from hell and especially save those who are in most need of His Mercy. That part is not directly related to any particular text in he Gospel but is a summary of Catholic belief.
As the prayers of the Rosary are repeated, we maintain a certain meditational focus. The focus is on the Glorious Mysteries, Joyful, Sorrowful and Glorious;; some also add a fourth group, Luminous. Each set of mysteries is a remembrance and meditation on the events of the Holy Gospel grouped by their emotional tone.
The Mysteries are:
Joyful
The Annunciation
The Visitation
The Nativity
The Presentation
The Finding of Jesus in the Temple
Sorrowful
The Agony in the Garden
The Scourging at the Pillar
The Crowning with Thorns
The Carrying of the Cross
The Crucifixion
Glorious
The Resurrection
The Ascension
The Descent of the Holy Spirit
The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary
The Coronation of the Blessed Virgin Mary
Let me know if you need help identifying these events in the Holy Scripture.
There is, finally a connection between the decades (10-prayer groups) of the Holy Rosary and the 150 Psalms of David. The Rosary said in full -- three rounds x 5 decades in a loop of beads x 10 Hail Marys -- is a New Testament poetic response to the Psalms.
It is a very complex and very powerful prayer that changes souls.
my beliefs
Yeah, -- what are they?
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