Posted on 04/09/2014 1:55:12 PM PDT by wmfights
"Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things." 2 Timothy 2:7
Did you ever wonder why there is so much confusion in religion today? Why is it that you can hear so many people teaching contradicting doctrines when they all use the Bible? There is an answer.
Most of the confusion and contradicting doctrine that you hear today is a result of failing to obey God’s command in II Timothy 2:15, to “Rightly Divide the Word of truth”. Most people do not distinguish between the KINGDOM MESSAGE of Christ and his apostles found in Matthew through John and Hebrews through Revelation and that of THE MESSAGE OF GRACE given to and through the apostle Paul in ROMANS through PHILEMON.
We are told to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH, and to follow PAUL, and failure to do so results in confusion.
WE ASK THAT YOU EXAMINE PRAYERFULLY SOME SCRIPTURAL FACTS KEEPING IN MIND WHAT PAUL SAID IN 1 Corinthians 14:37:
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
ALL REFERENCES ARE FROM THE KING JAMES BIBLE.
1. PAUL IS THE APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES.
Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
2. PAUL RECEIVED HIS MESSAGE BY DIRECT REVELATION AND HIS WORDS ARE THE WORDS OF CHRIST FOR TODAY.
Gal 1:11-12 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
3. PAUL LAID THE FOUNDATION FOR THE CHURCH, CHRIST’S BODY.
1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth there upon.
4. PAUL WAS THE FIRST MAN EVER SAVED TOTALLY BY GRACE.
1 Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
5. PAUL WAS GIVEN THE DISPENSATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD.
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
6. PAUL'S MESSAGE WAS A MYSTERY N0T MADE KNOWN UNTIL REVEALED TO HIM.
Eph 3:3-5 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
7. PAUL PREACHED A DIFFERENT GOSPEL FROM PETER AND WAS SENT TO A DIFFERENT PEOPLE. THE APOSTLES ACKNOWLEGED PAUL’S MINISRTY AND WERE IN AGREEMENT WITH IT.
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
WHILE WE DO NOT WORSHIP PAUL, WE DO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT HE WAS GOD'S CHOSEN VESSEL TO MAKE THE MESSAGE OF SALVATION BY GRACE KNOWN IN THE DISPENSATION OF GRACE AND WE ARE TOLD TO FOLLOW HIM. (1 COR 11:1)
My confusion lies in the apparent assertion that the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace are the same.
Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Do you know what the gospel of the kingdom is, can you from Paul's scripture point to the gospel of the kingdom?, not just the existence of it "but what it IS"? what is the promise of the gospel of the kingdom?, who was, if anyone, saved by the gospel of the kingdom?
I believe our scripture is Rom-Phil only, I am not an Acts 9,13,15,28, or anything, Rom-Phil only.
You appear to be suggesting that wmfights doesn't understand the meaning of 'rightly dividing the word of truth'...Then you suggest he hasn't received the actual teaching of the Holy Spirit...But if he comes up with the same definition you have, then the Holy Spirit got thru to him...
Tell ya what...If you disagree, why don't you point out the disagreement and the scripture that teaches you to disagree...
The problem with most folks, as with me in the past is they bring mans wisdom into the reading of the word, nine times out of ten, the meaning of the verses, are within the immediate context, no need to jump all over the scriptures.
While that happens on occasion, I find that God did not write the scriptures like a novel...If everything was lain out in that fashion there would be no need to really study...Quite often a single verse which means little by itself will be confirmed and expanded on in another chapter in another book...
This dispensation is not the last of the dispensations to take place...
The writer seems to believe "rightly dividing" means dividing Israels truth from our truth, or their gospel from our gospel in this dispensation,...
That is certainly part of it...
I don't disagree with anyone, that is fruitless, I agree with the scriptures, when we agree with scripture we are of one mind and one accord. I pointed out where the scriptures defines the meaning, and gives a clear example of those who did not rightly divide the word of truth, I indicated that one needs to read the scripture for themselves and not depend on the man behind the pulpit who then tells you what to read and where to read, as you do this it seems to make sense but it is wrong, not that they are intentionally wrong, but they teach what they have been taught, although much of what they teach is right, a little leaven, leavens the whole lump.
I would ask you what is the "word of truth"? this is one of the few times you would go outside of the immediate context, to get the meaning, and it is important to understand the meaning of rightly dividing.
"Then you suggest he hasn't received the actual teaching of the Holy Spirit..."
I am suggesting he has received the teaching of Atwood, and that is not what the scripture says.
"But if he comes up with the same definition you have, then the Holy Spirit got thru to him..."
I am saying if by reading the definition of rightly dividing that is given right there in the chapter context, he is not agreeing with me, but agreeing with scripture.
"While that happens on occasion, I find that God did not write the scriptures like a novel...If everything was lain out in that fashion there would be no need to really study"
You are quite right about that, Paul's scripture is not a novel, it is not books of stories, they are letters of doctrinal facts, the letters are not presented chronologically but are presented in the order of doctrine, the first four letters and small part of Ephesians are written to two groups of gentiles, Eph thru 2Thess are written strictly to the body of Christ, and is purely body of Christ doctrine, and 1Tim thru Philemon are personal letters where no new doctrine is taught, the doctrine in the previous letters are reenforced in these personal letters.
"Quite often a single verse which means little by itself will be confirmed and expanded on in another chapter in another book..."
Very few versus if any, means anything by itself, the understanding of versus and the words in versus, is dependent on the context, context, context. What you are calling "confirmed and expanded" is what Paul in scripture calls reproof.
I have listened in the past to many hours of Steve Atwood on MP3's and read lots of his stuff, as well as many others who refer to themselves as dispensation right dividers, I know well what they teach, I was right with them until upon reading the scriptures for myself, I discovered they did not always agree with scripture nor did they always agree with each other, and that ought not to be. When you read Paul's letters diligently you know it never ought to be.
I will help direct anyone who is first willing to see these things on there own by reading scripture for themselves,not going to some pastor or teacher or book, if you say you tried, to see it, but can't, I will help you too discover it for yourself as I did, those not willing to be independent of mans wisdom, are just religious.
It is really amazing when you learn you do not need anyone to tell you what the scripture says...for this I will be ridiculed, discounted, ignored, falsely accused of presenting my own opinion, but I'm getting use to it, at least I will not be shamed, tortured, and constantly under threat of death as Paul was, he suffered it all that you and I may understand the mystery of Christ, not that I have already achieved it, far from it, and it is a daily joy to read and press on towards the mark.
How many dispensations do you think there are, or rather how many does the scriptures say there are? (please answer the ?) I would say that you do not agree with the scriptures, based on your comment, but mans wisdom has taught you wrongly.
As to rightly dividing you said "That is certainly part of it..."
In context of 2Tim2...it certainly is not...
I'm not wanting or trying to be an arrogant, snarky, know it all, I'm trying to point out that these things you say, are not things you read in scripture because they are not there, but the things some man behind a pulpit has told you.
I look forward to endeavoring in the scripture together, Jesus Christ is my life and those of us who believe the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:) are presently surrounded buy the course of this world, and as believers we are really few and far between.
YOu're not making much sense to me...
'I'm not telling you what I see but if you don't see it as well, let me know and I'll help you out'...
I don't know if I see what you see because you won't tell anyone what you see...
Do you mean that because a dispensation has past that Scripture from that prior era is no longer Scripture?
There is a great deal of prophecy in the OT that is still to be fulfilled. There is a great deal of fulfilled prophecy in the OT that reveals God's mercy and shows God always fulfills His promises. The same can be said for the synoptic Gospels and John.
Why would posting and article for discussion indicate that the poster has only learned from the author of the article?
Thank you
FWIW, it's hard to fellowship and grow in understanding if we don't "lay our cards on the table". The idea behind putting together a Dispensational ping list and posting Caucus threads is to give Born Again Christians an opportunity to examine and discuss issues such as the difference between the Messianic Kingdom Gospel and the Gospel of Grace.
It seems you agree that in the current dispensation it is the era of The Gospel of Grace. In the prior era when Jesus came and revealed Himself to Israel do you believe this was also an era of the Gospel of Grace and it was just a misunderstanding of the Jews, that they expected their Messiah to establish the Kingdom?
You see a difference in the Gospel preached to Jews and Gentiles after Pentecost? As I reflect on the various Scripture references regarding the Gospel, I see one Gospel preached not two. Here are the references:
Starting with Jesus Christ we have this:
Luke 24:
44 And he said unto them,These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them,Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Then we have Peter proclaiming the following:
Acts 15:
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Then we have Paul say the following regarding the One True Gospel:
1 Corinthians 15:
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
To avoid any conflicts we see Paul proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom of God in the last chapter of Acts:
Acts 28:
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
So I don't see two separate Gospels. There is one Gospel and we are told it is for the Jew and Greek.
Romans 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Here are some other Kingdom references from Paul:
“Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:” (Colossians 1:12-13 AV)
“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthians 15:50 AV)
“And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.” (Colossians 4:11 AV)
“For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” (Ephesians 5:5 AV)
" And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more."(Acts 20:25 AV)
Not a misunderstanding. Some realized it because they were given the eyes that see and the ears that hear. Even the disciples and later apostles were not in the full understanding. That is why we see in Luke 24 Jesus Christ opening their understanding of the Scriptures..
What I personally think (FWIW) is that those who insist on "red letters only" get caught up in works based salvation. On the other hand, what we have on this thread is an attempt to hand wave the Words of Jesus Christ because they don't "seem to fit" Paul's epistles. Both approaches miss the mark IMHO.
What is missing is "how to read" the Gospels. We are not living in the time of Jesus Christ's ministry. We are on the "right hand side" of the Cross and Empty Tomb. It has happened, it is finished. If we read the Gospels in the light of the completed Work of Jesus Christ then there is no conflict with the Gospel of Grace and the preaching of the Kingdom of God. None at all. We are saved by Grace through faith in the shed Blood of Christ...Period. As the followers of Jesus Christ we do what He commanded as every good soldier must do. That's it in a nutshell. Trust and Obey.
So I don't see two separate Gospels. There is one Gospel and we are told it is for the Jew and Greek.
Prior to The Cross and immediately following the Apostles were clueless as to The Gospel of Grace.
Luke 18:34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.
Even immediately after the Crucifixion they did not understand.
John 20:9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.
Their view was the same as other Jews that the Messiah would come and establish His Kingdom on Earth centered in Jerusalem.
Zech. 14:9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-"The Lord is one," And His name one.
After Pentecost I do see a slight difference in the Gospel preached to Jews and Gentiles in that until The Gospel of Grace was given to Paul, Peter preached baptism prior to receiving the Holy Spirit (see Acts 2:38) and there was an expectation that believers would adopt Jewish religious practices such as circumcision. It wasn't until the Jerusalem Council that the Apostles and Jerusalem church realized their error.
In our current dispensation, The Age of Grace, there is only one Gospel that applies to everyone. However, Israel has been blinded to some degree for our sakes. That does not mean they will be blind forever, or that there is a different Gospel for them now.
Rom. 11:25-26 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved,...
We agree!
What is missing is "how to read" the Gospels. We are not living in the time of Jesus Christ's ministry. We are on the "right hand side" of the Cross and Empty Tomb. It has happened, it is finished. If we read the Gospels in the light of the completed Work of Jesus Christ then there is no conflict with the Gospel of Grace and the preaching of the Kingdom of God. None at all. We are saved by Grace through faith in the shed Blood of Christ...Period. As the followers of Jesus Christ we do what He commanded as every good soldier must do. That's it in a nutshell. Trust and Obey.
Well said.
IF anyone would like to be on the Dispensational Ping List please mail me
Very true. And as of today, most still don't comprehend the "Free gift". It is like HE humbled himself to US for what happened concerning Noah's flood.
Please read the scriptures I posted or re-read them. Because your last post goes directly against what is recorded in Acts.
I agree with just about every point the author says except this one. We read from I Timothy 1:12-17:
I don't read that passage as Paul was the FIRST shown the gospel of Grace or who was first saved by grace alone, just that God was bringing in all Gentiles and writing His laws upon each heart, by grace, to those who would believe on Jesus Christ. I believe that ANYONE who was saved at all was saved by the same grace of God as we in the church age are. Prior to the cross, God related to man through His law with its ordinances and feast days, etc. Dispensationalism, as far as I understand it, is regarding how God worked and related with mankind from the start. But, we know from Scripture that Abraham was justified by faith and not his works, and he was before there even was a Law of Moses. I don't believe God EVER saved anyone based upon their own merit or righteousness but was ALWAYS by grace.
Excellent points all around.
I think the author may have worded his point poorly when he said "PAUL WAS THE FIRST MAN EVER SAVED TOTALLY BY GRACE".
1Tim. 1:16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
We are both in agreement that in all ages it is God's grace that saves. However I think it is Paul that is first given the full understanding that this Grace is given by faith alone with out any works preceding it.
Peter and the Apostles were given this revelation by Jesus, but they did not fully comprehend it.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Reading this it looks to me like Peter is saying you have preconditions to receiving God's Grace (receiving the Holy Spirit) other than faith. In this instance it is baptism. Whereas Paul states no preconditions.
Rom. 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Clearly by the time of the Jerusalem Council Peter realized how much things changed at The Cross. I don't know why God choose to do things this way, but I suspect it was because God in His infinite wisdom knew it was too big a jump for Jews to take in all at once.
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