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Justin Martyr and Supersessionism
Theological Studies ^
| Michael Vlach
Posted on 05/11/2014 1:50:36 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: HarleyD
The nation of Israel eventually became a paganistic nation sacrificing their children to the god of Molech, just as Moses had foretold. Only a remnant remained of those who believed by faith in God our Lord by His grace. We are what remains of that remnant.No, Israel did not become a Gentile nation. It does not matter what some Israelites/Jews/Israelis have done. It matters what God does. God made an eternal covenant with Israel and He is not finished with Israel. Israel remains Israel, the physical descendants of Jacob, and as the Apostle to the Gentiles wrote As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
As far as Israel taking the slings and arrows, one should examine what our dear Christian brothers and sisters are going through today and their persecution.
Yes, persecution is very real for some Christians in pagan nations like North Korea, and in much of the Islamic world. The persecution is more nuanced in the postChristian/neoPagan/secular nations of the West. I meant if you really want to identify yourself as Israel, then you should suffer the same persecution as Israel. If you are a man, being a Christian does not make you a woman or vice a versa. You should dress like a man. Cross dressing would be inappropriate. So in this world, we still have Jews and Gentiles, men and women, and to some extent bond and free.
21
posted on
05/11/2014 4:41:28 PM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: .45 Long Colt
“Indeed. Weve been grafted in.”
Hence my screen name. :)
22
posted on
05/11/2014 4:49:26 PM PDT
by
ImaGraftedBranch
(...By reading this, you've collapsed my wave function. Thanks.)
To: af_vet_1981
God made an eternal covenant with Israel and He is not finished with Israel. Israel remains Israel, the physical descendants of Jacob, and as the Apostle to the Gentiles wrote As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Blood line had nothing to do with being part of Israel. The promise of a great nation WASN'T given to Jacob-it was given to Abraham. The apostle Paul also wrote the following:
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
And, as Paul points out, there were many children of Abraham but only a few children of the promise. And Israel is a type of what God had in mind.
So the real question is who are the children of the promise?
23
posted on
05/11/2014 5:01:41 PM PDT
by
HarleyD
("... letters are weighty, but his .. presence is weak, and his speech of no account.")
To: HarleyD
Blood line had nothing to do with being part of Israel. The promise of a great nation WASN'T given to Jacob-it was given to Abraham. The apostle Paul also wrote the following:
- For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
And further:
- And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
- And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
- And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padan-aram, and blessed him. And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land. And God went up from him in the place where he talked with him.
Jacob is one of only three in the Scriptures who were called tam or its plural, tamim (perfect). Noah, Job, and Jacob were tam while Abraham was
- Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
- There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
- And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents.
- And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
So it makes sense to see Jacob as perfect in the same sense as Noah, Job, and Abraham (who was commanded to be tamim).
Now, for righteousness' sake, let's include Daniel to see what a high standard the word indicates.
- The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves. Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
24
posted on
05/11/2014 5:25:29 PM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: af_vet_1981
I left off the reference for
tamim; here it is.
tamim
25
posted on
05/11/2014 5:27:17 PM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: Jan_Sobieski
Question: for my replacement theology friends. If the New Covenant nullifies the biblical promises made to the children of Israel, including the Abrahamic Covenant, the Land Covenant, and the Davidic Covenant, why would God honor the covenant with the Church given the great apostasy of our day?
What you-all (in general, not necessarily you in particular) want is it fulfilled in a very particular way, not accepting any other answers.
Abrahamic Covenant
Fulfilled in Christ. Those who are of faith are heirs.
"the Land Covenant"
(Ignoring for the moment that it's not a covenant in its own right, but a part of God's very different covenants with Abraham and through Moses) Romans 4:13, expanded to include the world, applied to Abraham and his seed.
Davidic Covenant
Fulfilled in Christ, the ultimate Davidic heir.
26
posted on
05/11/2014 5:38:31 PM PDT
by
Lee N. Field
("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
To: af_vet_1981
Noach was only perfect in his GENERATION, which doesn’t say much.
27
posted on
05/11/2014 6:05:21 PM PDT
by
hecht
(america 9/11, Israel 24/7)
To: hecht
Noach was only perfect in his GENERATION, which doesnt say much.The testimony in Ezekiel about Noah, Daniel, and Job speaks volumes. We should honor and love those whom God loves.
28
posted on
05/11/2014 6:53:02 PM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: Jan_Sobieski
Great post
Hosea chapter 1 shows that God used the Jews rejection of the Messiah to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. We are grafted in to believing Israel. However this does not supercede his covenant with the Jews, who will again become "His" people (Hosea chapter 1) and be grafted into the believing remnant.
Romans 11 offers a great follow up to your point.
Rom. 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
In order for supersessionism to become a popular interpretation the whole process for understanding Scripture had to change. We see this begin with Justin Martyr. A literal reading of Roms. 11:25 makes it clear that God is not done with Israel.
29
posted on
05/11/2014 6:54:07 PM PDT
by
wmfights
To: imardmd1
Done!
Look forward to your input.
30
posted on
05/11/2014 6:54:49 PM PDT
by
wmfights
To: HarleyD
Blood line had nothing to do with being part of Israel. The promise of a great nation WASN'T given to Jacob-it was given to Abraham.
Ezekiel 28:25
'Thus says the L-rd G-D, "When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and will manifest My holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they will live in their land which I gave to My servant Jacob."
Isaiah 49:6
He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations so that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."
Micah 4:2
Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the L-RD And to the house of the G-d of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For from Zion will go forth the Torah, even the word of the L-RD from Jerusalem.
31
posted on
05/11/2014 7:26:13 PM PDT
by
Tzfat
To: Cicero
If there were only Christians, if all Jews accepted Christ, then would there be no more Jews?
All Jews are not necessarily Semitic any more. The ARABS still are.
I always thought that being Jewish was a FAITH not a race/nationality. There ARE a ton of Arab Israelis in Israel, doing the work that the Jewish Israelis don't want to do--farming, washing toilets, etc.
When I took a tour of the Holy Land (Steve & Janet Ray tour) in 2011 our guide for part of the way was a Palestinian Arab Catholic. Nice guy.
To: wmfights
I’ve read about him. Wonderful read.
To: ImaGraftedBranch
Indeed. Weve been grafted in.We are grafted into the root...We are not grafted into the branches...
The root is not Israel...We are not grafted into Israel...The root is Jesus Christ...
34
posted on
05/11/2014 8:41:38 PM PDT
by
Iscool
(Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
To: Lee N. Field
(Ignoring for the moment that it's not a covenant in its own right, but a part of God's very different covenants with Abraham and through Moses) Romans 4:13, expanded to include the world, applied to Abraham and his seed. Romans 4:13 has nothing to do with the land covenant...
The land covenant was given only to Jacob's seed...Not to all of the seed of Abraham...
Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
Gen 35:12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.
Gen 48:3 And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
Gen 48:4 And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.
(Ignoring for the moment that it's not a covenant in its own right, but a part of God's very different covenants with Abraham and through Moses) Romans 4:13, expanded to include the world, applied to Abraham and his seed.
Of course it's a covenant in its own right...And not to be ignored...It's a covenant made with Jacob's seed thru Abraham...It doesn't include all of Abraham's seed...Never will...It's a land covenant that has not yet been fulfilled...
Davidic Covenant
Fulfilled in Christ, the ultimate Davidic heir.
That's absurd...Jesus never sat on the throne of David and he is not right now...Jesus is sitting on 'his Father's throne' and will not sit on the throne of David til he shows up after the Tribulation...
David's throne is a physical throne on a piece of land in Israel in a temple that has not yet been rebuilt...
Abrahamic Covenant
Fulfilled in Christ. Those who are of faith are heirs.
And unlike the land covenant, this covenant includes all the descendants of Esau and Jacob who are spiritually in Jesus; Chinese, Jewish, Arabs, Africans; Gentile and Jew alike, for the is no difference spiritually, in Jesus Christ...
Outside of Jesus Christ there is still a world of difference between Jew and Gentile, Jacob and Esau......
35
posted on
05/11/2014 9:43:33 PM PDT
by
Iscool
(Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
To: af_vet_1981
Jacob is one of only three in the Scriptures who were called tam or its plural, tamim (perfect). Noah, Job, and Jacob were tam while Abraham wasEdited for what I meant to write:
Jacob is one of only three in the Scriptures who were called tam (perfect). They are Noah, Job, and Jacob. Abraham was called to be its plural, tamim.
36
posted on
05/12/2014 4:25:18 AM PDT
by
af_vet_1981
(The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
To: Tzfat; af_vet_1981
Look, we can pick and choose verses until the cows come home. Paul clearly explains in practically the entire last half of Romans (9-11) that Gentiles are grafted into the nation of Israel and that many "Israelites" do not belong to Abraham. The whole purpose of Romans 9 is to tell Gentiles they are part of the Abrahamic covenant.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
And Romans 11 goes even further:
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
The Jews are blinded because of their unbelief. We are graffed in.
Rom 10:19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry."
We are that "foolish" nation.
Honestly, I don't know how much clearer it has to be. Some simply want to throw out Romans 9-11 or ignore it. I wouldn't recommend it.
37
posted on
05/12/2014 5:00:55 AM PDT
by
HarleyD
("... letters are weighty, but his .. presence is weak, and his speech of no account.")
To: HarleyD
Picking and choosing verses, spiritualizing, and redefining words, are what supercessionists and other judeophobes are best at.
38
posted on
05/12/2014 5:15:11 AM PDT
by
Tzfat
To: Tzfat
The next thread in this series will be on Origen, which leads right to your point.
The spiritualizing, allegorical interpretation, and redefining of words didn't start until after the Apostolic Era ended. Prior to this change the approach was first literal. If we return to this approach so much more becomes clear. One example of this is the Book of Revelation. Once we recognize it is about God opening Israel's eyes it makes sense.
39
posted on
05/12/2014 6:52:09 AM PDT
by
wmfights
To: Iscool
My screen name is not “I am grafted into the branches”.
“Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, ....”
One grafts branches.
Also, the root was Jesse, from which Christ is the shoot out of that stump.
Some research before you preach, please.
ImaGraftedBranch
40
posted on
05/12/2014 12:13:53 PM PDT
by
ImaGraftedBranch
(...By reading this, you've collapsed my wave function. Thanks.)
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