Posted on 06/04/2014 6:52:46 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Perhaps the concept of good and evil are just human traits, and God, being the almighty creator of all, has no need for it?
Using that logic, it is VERY easy to believe the lost are annihilated and virtually impossible to accept that God even allows the lost to be tortured for “linear time never ending”. It simply doesn’t match His personality as presented in the entirety of the bible.
The Holy Bible, and Christianity in general, offers a spectrum of belief on the matter of life after death.
I do see your point of view.
From my point of view, it is not a good thing to ascribe human characteristics or human logic or thinking to God.
His Ways are not our ways. He is truly ineffable.
The best clues I have to His wishes are what his Son told us in scripture. To me, the red ink offers the clearest path. And next to that is what the Apostles gave us.
Whether or not sinners are annihilated or burn for eternity is up to God.
Neither option is very appealing.
Interesting. I have often thought of the Episcopal priest in CS Lewis’s GREAT DIVORCE when it comes to this type of “creative thinking” about Hell.
Re: your idea that Revelation uses symbolic language... yes, of course it does. But you seem to take that as a signal that interpreting it is now a “free-for-all”, where any theological (amateur or otherwise) may inject any meaning he wishes onto it... and that simply won’t do.
I have a friend who is a pre-tribulationist. He’s studied the bible far more than me and teaches large classes. He is convinced that the beginning of Revelation 4 is proof of pre-trib rapture. I, on the other hand, believe the much more literal explanation in Revelation 7 after the sealing of the 144,000 is proof of “mid-tribulation” rapture.
I think I’m right, but I understand I may be missing something and could actually be wrong. But again I fall onto my understanding of God’s personality to support my position. And the personality of God allows His people to go through no small amount of tribulation, as happens throughout the bible not to mention the fates of the apostles. But it strengthens us.
But this is why, although I value Revelation a great deal, I understand that different people come up with different interpretations of the actual meanings of the phrases and stories it contains.
But at the end of the day I think any of us that use its words to believe they solidly support a position on something like the tribulation or hell is being too smart by half.
I don’t see anything there that, at the level you present it, I disagree with.
“On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?”—Romans 9:20
FWIW.
For you to assume that God will “shovel us all into Heaven, wholesale” (even Satan and the demons!)...
My post was about the fate of the lost: those who DON”T enjoy eternal life. And my point is that they are simply destroyed, not tortured for linear time neverending. They don’t have eternal life. That is what the bible clearly teaches.
This writer invokes the ideas of an atheist madman as a critic of classical Christian doctrine? Absurd. Another Rob Bell wannabe, apparently.
I would have to answer that I am the man You made.
Good post.
Jim, is there a policy?
What is “punishment”, and what is the purpose of punishment?
Regarding your parents, if they are unconcerned about salvation, are they repentant? The beauty of the “lost are annihilated” message is that those that choose Christ choos freely, not because they are afraid of the alternative.
If someone chooses Christ simply because they don’t want to be tortured, have they really chosen Christ, or are they hedging their bets? And where does the concept of the “cheerful giver” fall into this?
My personal belief is that a person who goes to church solely because he is afraid of hell is not a Christian. And if he IS a Christian, he’s not concerned about hell.
Human motivation comes from two things:
1. fear of a bad thing happening.
2. Desire for a good thing to happen.
Christians, when they are being Christian, are in number 2 mode. Number one is fear, and fear is the lack of faith. And the fearful will experience the second death (Revelation 21:8)
And number one is from the pit of hell. And the “turn or burn” message is number one, if you get my drift. ;-)
Why couldn’t we talk about Him or love for that matter? I don’t believe the bible has to be referenced when we speak of God.
We are in agreeement.
I think I see your point (though I’d still say that it’s incorrect in many parts), but: the idea of eternal hell isn’t exactly a tiny and obscure Scriptural “blip”; it’s rather central to the Gospel message... and anyone who tries to suggest that Hell is NOT eternal has to resort to the most extraordinary mental calisthenics (or else deny the Bible and its contents altogether)! It’s akin to those who try to deny the divinity of Christ; a significant number of people try it (Jehovah’s Witnesses, and other modern subscribers to the Arian heresy), but they have to do violence to the Biblical context (and the Biblical text, sometimes going so far as to “re-translate” the Bible in keeping with their beliefs, as the JW’s do in their “New World” version [I can’t call it a “translation”, as such, since it’s so distorted]).
Simple logic demands that there have to be limits on how far one is allowed to “interpret” the Scriptures; we are not free to go into la-la land and say “Black can really be interpreted to mean white, if only we have the eyes to see it!” Words mean things... and those who try their utmost to “explain away” even the clearest Biblical passages seem to be doing their best to inject their own preferences onto a text which simply doesn’t agree with them.
From OUR PERSPECTIVE we have NO EXCUSE.
I’m a human being. I can have a mind and a body. If I’m on a business trip and a whore throws herself at me, in the reality of what it means to be a human being - I HAVE A CHOICE TO MAKE IN MY MIND.
But think a minute. What brought me to be sitting in that restaurant having dinner ? What brought that woman to that restaurant that evening ? She didn’t know I was going to be there. I didn’t know she was going to be there.
We were both living our lives, and our lives intersected.
From our human perspective, we have free will. And we do not know what our own future holds.
Will we walk out our front door tomorrow and a piano falls on our head ? Will our flight crash ? When we blow through that stopsign, will we just breeze right through the intersection ? Or will we be crushed from the side by a fully-loaded 18-wheeler ?
Now let’s consider God’s viewpoint.
There are Bible verses which say God predestinated the elect. You certainly can look them up and study them.
What of everyone else ? (human sniffle, sniffle, whine)
But it’s not fawewww ! What about the other people that God did not predestinate ?
Woops, we’re thinking like humans again.
Let’s be logical instead. If those who are saved, S, are predestinated to be saved, what about NOT S ? NOT S (not saved) are not part of that group S (saved). NOT S were not predestinated to be saved. By inference can we conclude that NOT S were predestinated to not be saved ? Where NOT S predestinated to be NOT S, if S were predestinated to be S ?
The only flimisical argument available to us puny humans is that God predestinated S to be saved, and the rest.... he leaves that entirely up to them. They’re not predestinated to be saved, they’re not predestinated to damnation. God leaves it entirely up to them, whatever they want to do. Maybe God influences them along the way, but God does not really know what their choice will be. Well, the Bible tells that God is ominscient, he knows the future. Hmmm... I’ve got to get my flimsical tale really flexible now. Well, he knows what they will do in the future, those who are not predestinated to be saved. He knows what their ultimate choice will be. God set the whole heavens and earth in motion, mind you - and he set them in motion such that he could predestinate S being saved. But he actually did not force the NOT S to not be saved. All God’s plans could have worked out in countless different ways, depending on the choice that every member (millions of people) in NOT S wound up making for themselves.
Will Pieter commit adultery with that woman he meets in the restaurant while on a business trip ? God didn’t know what Pieter’s choice would be. God had two entirely different versions of God’s plan for the world, one if Pieter had sex with the woman, and a different one if Pieter didn’t. Because if Pieter commits adultery with that woman, his life and the woman’s life will take an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PATH than if Pieter does not commit adultery with that woman.
And so on, for millions of people.
Do you see how nonsensically impossible it is to have a plan for the entire universe which determines what will happen far into the future, but in that plan leave an enormous space of possibilities which are indeterminate at the time the plan is made ?
Do you see how from Pieter’s perspective - he had no idea how events in his life would unfold up until now and how they will unfold in the future ? So from Pieter’s point of view he has the full capability to make choices as his life happens ?
It seems that too many on FR are too quick to try to get Jim to pull the trigger on those that have the audacity to disagree with their opinon. And worse, based on a remark in an internet post that could be interpreted many ways.
It’s kinda creepy.
And number one is from the pit of hell.
I don’t believe the bible has to be referenced when we speak of God.
I don’t think Paul referenced it very often. At least, not the NT. ;-)
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