How Hitler and Judas could end up in heaven

The Week ^ | 06/04/2014 | Damon Linker

[PieterCasparzen]

I would substitute ‘monotheistic malice’ for Christian malice’.

I'm getting tired of athiests on FR. Seems like we're getting more and more of them. Seems like there is a coordinated effort to push athiesm on FR, or at least post a lot of athiest spam.

I understand having debate, but I don't have the time or inclination to endlessly debate athiests.

If I did, I'd be on athiest forums debating with them.

But it's nonsensical to debate with people who not debating, they're just posting athiest nonsense as fast as they can.

What's the FR policy on athiesm ?

[cuban leaf]

from memory:

It is better for that man if he had never been born

straight is the way, narrow is the gate and few there be that find it

no one comes to the Father but by me

The guy who wrote that article is spewing garbage

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Though I disagree with the writer in a few places, I’d not call it garbage. And it is better for a man who lives this life but is destroyed at the Great White Throne judgement if he had never been born.

[Roman_War_Criminal]

Indeed! The mistake that a lot of people make is that they think sin eventually gets them into hell.

Ron Graham (RIP) wrote a spellbinding article on hell a few years ago.

Jesus is our only lifeline out of that horror.

https://www.raptureready.com/featured/graham/g146.html

[Genoa]

I think Turner only means to suggest that “aionian” or “age-abiding” must be allowed to have a rather broad meaning based on just what is being asserted in the context.

[cuban leaf]

Yep. The fire is eternal. But ONLY the fire is described as eternal. The fate of those thrown into it is that they are burned up. The fire is all consuming. If those thrown into it are not consumed, the fire is not all consuming.

[cuban leaf]

I completely disagree. Hell is for those who reject God in this life, and thus will live without Him in the next.

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For how long? Only those that accept Christ are promised eternal life.

[nonsporting]

Hell is for those who reject God in this life, and thus will live without Him in the next.

Be careful. Those who die in their sins, even though they will be 'resurrected unto damnation' (Daniel 12:2, John 5:29), will NEVER 'live' again. They will exist, but the Bible uses the word live/life (eternal life) for those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in this life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25,26)

The believer 'never dies' (his spirit lives, though the flesh dies). The unbeliever's dead spirit is resurrected and that damnable creature, fully deserving of the just punishment God will impose, will be tormented forever in the lake of fire. See Revelation 20, 21.

We condemn ourselves to Hell by choosing to reject God’s will, in favor of our own, as well as our unwillingness to love our neighbor.

God's will is that we all come to the knowledge of the truth and trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Those who trust in their own righteousness to save them (and there are many we perceive as 'good people' who are sadly trusting in their own works) will spend eternity in hell with Hitler and Judas.

We should love our neighbor. But that doesn't mean we are to love those who hate God. God will chastise us for that error.

And Jehoshaphat the king of Judah returned to his house in peace to Jerusalem. 2And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD. 3Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God. (2 Chronicles 19:1-3)

[cuban leaf]

So, what was the rich man doing asking Abraham to send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool his tongue, saying he is tormented in this flame? (Luke 16:19-31)

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This might clarify it:

http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html

[Genoa]

Another point that needs to be made is that there can be a difference between “everlasting punishment” and “everlasting torment.” The punishment can be construed to be irreversible destruction.

[Roman_War_Criminal]

“Atheists” can be conservative too—you’d be surprised actually.

[SeekAndFind]

re: This is about man, not the “devil”. And you quoted Revelation. It is one of my favorite books of the bible, but it is very, VERY symbolic in its language. I never use it as a primary proof of anything, but as supporting other biblical proofs.

___________________________________

Even books that have symbolism in them MUST have some form of literalism in it, otherwise words become meaningless.

So, do the words “tormented forever and ever” mean what it says, or should it be understood symbolically? if so, why?

[cuban leaf]

I actually got the feeling at first that he was suggesting that hell is an everlasting search for reaching the perfection required on your own to be acceptable to God and, although you keep improving, you are never quite there.

It’s not where he was going, but it’s an interesting thought.

Personally, I think those that do not accept Christ, no matter how good they are, at the great white throne judgement are destroyed for all eternity. To the saved it is as though they never existed.

[DouglasKC]

The problem with traditional Christianity's view on eternal burning in hell is that it teaches that man has eternal life without God. This is a heresy.

The most popular verse in the Christian world is John 3:16...yet very few "get it":

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

The choices are "perish"...and the greek means to destroy fully. To die. And everlasting life.

Paul makes the same point:

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Death..or eternal life. Not ETERNAL LIFE and then torture.

Man, by default, without Christ, does not have eternal life. We are not immortal. That way was blocked:

Gen_3:24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

It is a Satanic lie that we have, or can have life, without Christ. That we are immortal without our Lord and Savior:

Gen 2:15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

You will be mortal. You will die. You will not have eternal life. But what is the lie of Satan?

Gen 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.

It's a lie that we have eternal lie already. It's a lie that we are immortal without Christ. It's a Satanic lie that goes against what God expressly said.

Who is hellfire prepared for?

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

The eternal fire is prepared for the devil and his angels...demons. People thrown into it, people who reject Christ, people who don't have eternal life...SURELY DIE.

[SeekAndFind]

re: People thrown into it, people who reject Christ, people who don’t have eternal life...SURELY DIE.

So, why is the rich man conscious and in torment, needing Lazarus to come and cool his tongue?

[Genoa]

So, do the words “tormented forever and ever” mean what it says

Sometimes Bible translators can be victims of their own assumptions. It is necessary to examine closely the terms of the original and what their range of meaning might have been to those who used them.

[Genoa]

First torment, then destruction.

[cuban leaf]

Remember, the bible was not written in English, and Revelation is a book of symbolism.

You are ignoring many, MANY scriptures that juxtapose the fate of the saved as eternal life and the fate of the unsaved as its opposite - death, destruction, perish, etc.

And frankly, the message of the destruction of the lost fits more with the personality of God. Even in the OT, his punishment was to wipe out entire nations. Even Sodom was not tortured, but annihilated.

God’s past and current dealing with those that are not His involves two courses:
1. Turn them to Him
2. Get rid of them.

[cuban leaf]

In this article, for example, Linker completely ignores what Jesus Christ and Christian scripture says repeatedly about life after death and who may enter Heaven and who may not. There will be a separation of wheat from chaff, of goats from sheep, and the weeds will burn for eternity.

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I agree with most of it, except the last five words. What He says repeatedly about the lost is that they will go to death, destruction, perish, etc.

At least, in the English translation.

[SeekAndFind]

RE: It is necessary to examine closely the terms of the original and what their range of meaning might have been to those who used them.

OK, I’m all ears, what are the range of meanings of the word : “forever and ever?”

Hear is the English definition of the word — forever:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=meaning%3A%20forever

“for all future time; for always.”

“continually”

“lasting or permanent”

What other range of meaning are there?

[cuban leaf]

http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html