Embroiled over Israel, Presbyterians invite a rabbi to the pulpit (Anti-Israel Resolutions Debate)

‘Chosen People’ means nothing more than that the Israelites were selected to receive the Torah. That’s all it means. It’s not a call for special favors. Many Jews regard it as a burden. Expectations for a Messiah to either come a first time or return have been around for a long time. I can tell you that Jews do indeed submit to a heavenly leader but are not allowed to ‘divide’ his divinity with a human being. The concept of half man/ half God is anathema to Judaism. Nothing is divine except God and God is one. Sorry.

I would stop trying to answer Philip Freneau. He's at war with dispensationalists and that's perfectly fine. But his quarrel is not with Jews or Noachides, as I have told him. If he is beginning to badger Jews and Noachides, then he really has a chip on his shoulder.

To you, Philip, I will provide answers which you dogmatically will reject (which is fine if you'll cease your badgering of us and stick to your fellow chrstians).

The Torah simply does not allow for a "fulfillment" such as chrstianity or any other such religion. The Torah is the Jewish religion. It was never understood to be temporary or preparatory. The Torah is to be observed for all time, even in the World to Come. The Torah is the highest Revelation. It is higher than the Prophets or the Hagiographa, and all other Biblical books must be interpreted according to it. Divine Revelation is regressive, not progressive. The Prophets are below the Torah and the Hagiographa (which includes Daniel) is a step below the Prophets. G-d Himself wrote the Torah, before the universe was even created, and then dictated it to Moses letter-by-letter, who took it down as a stenographer. The Prophets were written under the influence of Prophecy and the Hagiographa under Ruach HaQodesh. Each form of inspiration is progressively lower than the absolute Word of G-d which is the Torah.

Chrstians believe J*sus "fulfilled" the messianic prophecies not because they literally do so, but rather because the "new testament" (which they regard as infallible scripture) claims he did. The claims of a non-literal, "spiritual" messiah, "spiritual" kingdom, and "spiritual" Jerusalem are accepted "in light of" their fulfillment, which is assumed from the outset.

Now be a good boy and go back to pounding that mean old Hal Lindsay. Jews and Noachides do not believe the "new testament" and reject its "right" to interpret the "old" or to declare messianic prophecies "fulfilled." This means we have no common ground on which to argue.

Thanks for playing.

>>>I would stop trying to answer Philip Freneau. He's at war with dispensationalists and that's perfectly fine. But his quarrel is not with Jews or Noachides, as I have told him. If he is beginning to badger Jews and Noachides, then he really has a chip on his shoulder.<<<

Speaking of "chips:" that statement comes from one who sees an anti-semite under every tree. I believe even Ann Coulter made your smear list. Is she still on it?

>>>To you, Philip, I will provide answers which you dogmatically will reject (which is fine if you'll cease your badgering of us and stick to your fellow chrstians).<<<

No deal. Antichristian religions are also on my list, along with those who provide aid and comfort.

>>>The Torah simply does not allow for a "fulfillment" such as chrstianity or any other such religion. The Torah is the Jewish religion. It was never understood to be temporary or preparatory. The Torah is to be observed for all time, even in the World to Come. The Torah is the highest Revelation. It is higher than the Prophets or the Hagiographa, and all other Biblical books must be interpreted according to it. Divine Revelation is regressive, not progressive. The Prophets are below the Torah and the Hagiographa (which includes Daniel) is a step below the Prophets. G-d Himself wrote the Torah, before the universe was even created, and then dictated it to Moses letter-by-letter, who took it down as a stenographer. The Prophets were written under the influence of Prophecy and the Hagiographa under Ruach HaQodesh. Each form of inspiration is progressively lower than the absolute Word of G-d which is the Torah.<<<

I see that you respect the words written by Moses above all others. How do you resolve Devarim 18:18-19? I mean, if Moses tells you to do something, and he provided the most inspired instructions of the Lord, do you ignore him?

Anyway, it has been 3500 years, and counting, since Moses wrote that prophecy. Do you think the prophet that Moses predicted will ever show up? And if he does, how will you know it is him? How will you know it is the prophet Moses spake of? How can you avoid the same fate as the millions slaughtered by the Roman armies (or starved to death due to the evils of their own Jewish leadership) when all the rabbis were predicting a first-century messiah? If they were wrong then, they could be wrong now (or, they could have been right back then, and were too dumb to know it.)

>>>Chrstians believe J*sus "fulfilled" the messianic prophecies not because they literally do so, but rather because the "new testament" (which they regard as infallible scripture) claims he did. The claims of a non-literal, "spiritual" messiah, "spiritual" kingdom, and "spiritual" Jerusalem are accepted "in light of" their fulfillment, which is assumed from the outset.<<<

I seriously doubt you understand what Christians believe; otherwise you would be a Christian. I know what Jews believe, and that is why I would never consider Judaism as a religion. Let's just say, "I don't have the heart for it."

>>>Now be a good boy and go back to pounding that mean old Hal Lindsay.<<<

Didn't your mama teach you that it is not nice to be condescending? Moses did in Vayikra 19:18, in a general sorta way! In fact, that was probably the biggest "beef" the Lord had (and still has) against Israel, along with their "stiff necks." LOL!

>>>Jews and Noachides do not believe the "new testament" and reject its "right" to interpret the "old" or to declare messianic prophecies "fulfilled." This means we have no common ground on which to argue. <<<

But we do have common ground. The chosen people (well, a small remnant were actually chosen) became the foundation of Christianity, which was based on the New Covenant written of by the prophets (e.g., Yirmeyah 31:31-33). And the head of that religion is none-other than the prophet that Moses warned you to pay attention to: Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph and Mary, born in Bethlehem, as prophesied. Jesus is the prophet who also predicted this:

"…they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced." (Zecharyah 12:10)

>>>Thanks for playing.<<<

Now aren't you sweet. You actually wrote "thanks."

Philip

>>>'Chosen People’ means nothing more than that the Israelites were selected to receive the Torah.<<<

You are correct that the oracles of God were given only to the Israelites; and Christians certainly believe that is true because the New Covenant speaks thus by the inspired words of Paul and Peter:

"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt," (Acts 7:37-39 KJV)

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." (Rom 3:1-2 KJV)

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." (Heb 5:12 KJV)

"If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (1Pet 4:11 KJV)

Certainly Peter and Paul were not writing of Gentiles receiving any oracles, speaking them, or even being familiar with them. And the written record of our New Covenant, which is also called the New Testament, contains only oracles from the children of Israel: mostly, if not all, from Judah and Benjamin.

Gentiles (Goyim) are not the "original branches of the tree" (if you will,) but are "grafted into the tree," along with converted Jews that were not of the chosen (or elected) remnant. That is, the earliest Christians (all Jews,) who "stayed the course" and did not apostasize, are the "natural branches" of Christianity: the Lord being "the Root." Gentiles and non-elect Jews are "grafted in" upon conversion.

The difference between the non-elect and the "elected" remnant, respectively, are explained here, in a nutshell:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." (Joel 2:32 KJV)

One group--the remnant--was called by the Lord, and serve as the foundation(s) of Christianity. Distinctly, the apostles serve as the foundations of the Church; and the apostles, along with the prophets, serve as the foundations of the Holy Temple, with Christ being the chief cornerstone, as prophesied. The other group is required to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved (e.g., to circumcise their hearts):

"Circumcise therefore the arlat [foreskin] of your lev [heart,] and be no more stiffnecked." (Devarim 10:16 KJV)

"Circumcise yourselves to Hashem, and take the mohel knife to the arelot [foreskin] of your levav [heart], ye Ish Yehudah and inhabitants of Yerushalayim: lest My fury break out like eish, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your deeds." (Yirmeyah 4:4 OJB)

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Rom 2:28-29 KJV)

>>>That’s all it [Chosen People] means. It’s not a call for special favors. Many Jews regard it as a burden.<<<

Jews most certainly believe they are the chosen people, "above" all others; and their own mouths confirm it on a regular basis, as well as the mouths of their "limited-proselytes" of the Christian persuasion. I have been labouring to find the best way to confirm it spiritually: that is, from their doctrine; and I believe this is the best way:

You are aware that Jews believe it is a "sin" to lend with usury (with interest) to another Jew; but not to a non-Jew (to a Gentile, aka Goyim.) That is discrimination and "separatism," by definition, not too dissimilar to the doctrines of Islam, the Christian Identity movement, and other separatist ("we are better than you") movements. The commandment to "love thy neighbour as thyself," written in the Old Covenant as well as the New Covenant (the New Testament,) is either ignored or explained away within the "doctrine" of separatism. True Christians believe this:

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" (Acts 17:24-26 KJV)

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Rom 1:16 KJV)

"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:" (Rom 2:9-10 KJV)

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:12-13 KJV; see also Joel 2:32, above)

Historically, and today, the loudest cries against discrimination come from those of a "religion" that traditionally discriminates. Even a cursory reading of history shows that their cries have been, by far, the loudest when the discrimination was against them; but even their cries against the discrimination of others is discriminatory! You very rarely hear a Jew complain about discrimination against Christians (Rabbi Daniel Lapin is a rare exception): to the contrary.

>>>Expectations for a Messiah to either come a first time or return have been around for a long time. I can tell you that Jews do indeed submit to a heavenly leader but are not allowed to ‘divide’ his divinity with a human being. The concept of half man/ half God is anathema to Judaism. Nothing is divine except God and God is one. Sorry.<<<

So, you don't believe that God can present himself in anyway he pleases, even temporarily as a man? I personally believe God is all-powerful, and can do as he pleases. He is not constrained by man-imagined limitations. As for your doctrine, I must assume the following are other verses that are conveniently skipped, or explained away:

"Shofech dahm [one who sheddeth man’s blood,] by man shall his dahm be shed; for in the tzelem Elohim made He man." (Bereshis 9:6 OJB)

". . . and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, [saith Hashem] . . . " (Zecharyah 12:10 OJB)

These are the same verses from the King James Version:

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." (Gen 9:6 KJV)

". . . and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, [saith the Lord] . . ." (Zec 12:10-11 KJV)

Philip

I don't know if you are aware of it, but I've been having connection troubles for some time and now another problem has come up, so my I've got a lot on my plate right now and answering you is not a priority, but I will (please G-d) try to answer you at least briefly. Whether this posts or not is another matter.

What you don't seem to see is that your assumption that the "new testament" is "inspired" is just that--an assumption. The "inspiration" of the "new testament" is not self-evidently true. By assuming from the outset that it is, you are engaging in a logical fallacy called "affirmation of the consequent"--"proving" one's conclusion by simply assuming it from the outset.

The only Divine writings that have never had to be judged and canonized by human religious authorities are the Five Books of Moses, which were dictated to Moses from the Mouth of G-d (the Author) as to a stenographer. There is not a single letter of the Torah that isn't from Heaven. The Five Books of Moses sit in judgment on every single other book that claims to be Divinely inspired. Any book that contradicted them, or that predicted their replacement by something "higher," would never have been canonized in the first place. And anything that has been canonozed by proper Torah authorities (the Prophets and Hagiographa) must be interpreted in light of the Torah . . . the Torah is not interpreted in light of something that came later. Thus the Prophets, Psalms, etc., cannot by the very definition of things reveal that one day a "higher" truth will "supersede" (G-d forbid!) the Holy Torah.

The Prophets and Hagiographa were canonized by the Men of the Great Assembly, which included Prophets and other Biblical figures. They then closed the canon, meaning no other books can be added. Ever. Those Prophets and Hagiographa, furthermore, are only there until the prophecies are fulfilled at which point they will no longer be read publicly during liturgical worship. The very fact that they're still there is proof that they have not yet been fulfilled. Only the Torah (which is forever in force) and the Book of Esther will remain forever canonical and read liturgically.

The "new testament" was canonized by the historical Catholic/Orthodox church, which had no right to do so. If you accept the "new testament" you must logically accept the authority of the canonizing authority. I'll take the dictated Word of G-d and the holy Prophets over that church, thank you very much.

I have suspected for some time that your problem was not just with dispensationalism but with Judaism itself, of which you seem to consider pro-Jewish Fundamentalism a front group. This very post shows that some of your hostility towards Judaism and dispensationalism comes from the unfortunately very radical proclivities of very many Jews historically. You seem to connect this radicalism with Orthodox Judaism itself, as if they are somehow connected. Do you really believe that all those Hollywood sleezebags, dirty nightclub comics, what-have-you, are following the orders of some little old bearded ninety-year old man in Me'ah She`arim or Benei Beraq? Really??? The vast majority of Charedi Jews live insular lives, without an Internet connection or even television, and have very little to do with the outside world. You don't blame liberal chrstianity on a "secret plot" by orthodox chrstianity. Why then do you see some sort of "chain of command" from the aforementioned bearded ninety year old man and the American Civil Liberties Union?

I have spent literally a lifetime trying to figure out why the Chosen People have become associated in the popular mind (and in so many of their own minds) with irreverence, blasphemy, and apostasy. Over that lifetime I have come up with some theories that satisfy me (I doubt they would you), but they are simply too long and complex to elucidate in a single Free Republic post. Maybe one day I'll write them down in a series of documents on my word processor and make them available to anyone who's interested. Believe me, I very much wish I could satisfy you utterly in this one post, but it simply is not possible.

It is telling that, like many anti-Jewish "palaeoconservatives," you resent the Divinely-established separation between `Am Yisra'el and the rest of the human race, and even associate it with the rampant egalitarianism and (Heavens-to-Betsy) "race-mixing" of liberalism. It has always intrigued me that people who attack egalitarianism and champion hierarchy suddenly become egalitarian hippies when it comes to the Jews. The reason, I have come to believe, is that the separateness of Israel is indeed what keeps the rest of the human race united. Were Israel to intermingle and disappear from the world (G-d forbid!), the various nations would separate from each other and drift off into a situation where each lived in its own subjective world, with its own "truth" and its own "gxd." So long as Israel remains separate from the rest of humanity as G-d intended, the human race will remain united under the single Objective G-d. So no wonder "palaeos," who don't believe the human race are a single species bound by a single Truth, want to corrode Israel's integrity and see it melt away. If this idea (Israel's separateness keeps the rest of us stuck with each other) sounds strange and oxymoronic to you, consider that it is no different from the clergy/laity distinction in other religions. Most religions have clear and distinct boundaries between their priests and their laypeople (take a look at Catholicism for an example). Why would anyone who can accept this think that a similar situation with Israel as the clergy and the nations (which is the literal meaning of the world goyim, a word that appears throughout the Bible) as the laity is so unbearable?

Again, your resentment of liberal Jewish rhetoric about "discrimination" is clearly being focused on Orthodox Jews. Be assured that liberal Jews have little to no use for traditional Orthodox Jews (though some "Modern Orthodox" Jews like to mix the two). Again, if you think the ACLU is taking orders from some little bearded, black-hatted nonagenarian in Jerusalem you are barking up the wrong tree.

Finally, I wish to address this post of yours on another thread, which I saw last night--especially the final paragraph. All my life as a chrstian I was taught and believed that "your father the devil" referred to all "unsaved" people, without exception. Only racial anti-Semites consider it a reference to the ethnic origin of the Jewish People. You try to get around this by applying it only to the leadership, but you evidently consider the Jewish religious leadership--meaning traditional Orthodox Jewish religious leadership--as the vehicle through which "the devil" infects the entire world with everything wrong with it today. For your information, whatever you may think their faults are and whatever faults they may have, traditional Orthodox Jewish religious leadership is not implicated in the sexual depravity in which the world is drowning. Orthodox Judaism is one of the most "prudish" religions in the world. A woman is not even allowed to be alone in a room with a man who is not her husband or relative. Such people are not even allowed to touch each other. Even couples engaged to be married will not touch one another until afterwards. And in fact (you may find this interesting) it is known historically that during the Roman occupation of Israel, when a Roman soldier exposed his privates publicly all those "liberal chr*st-killers" responded with a riot. While Greeks and Romans were worshiping the naked human form, the Jews were the Puritans of the ancient world. There is one and only one way in which traditional Orthodox Jewish religious authorities today are implicated in our current situation, and that is by quietism and silence and "business-as-usual." And that's it.

Now, to something really important, and I hope you will read the following if you read nothing else.

The paragraph in question links three things together as the cause of all the evil in the world in our day: Bolshevism, the Federal Reserve, and the Scofield Reference Bible. Hmm. You know, I've read stuff like this before. You call the ancient Jewish authorities and the Bolsheviks "children of the devil" (ie, the Bolsheviks are carrying out the program of the Torah Authorities of J*sus' time, ie, Communism is an Orthodox Jewish plot), and you then couple this "Jewish Communism" with the Federal Reserve (Jewish International Bankers!!!) and the Scofield Reference Bible (Zionist Fundamentalism). This tells me quite a lot about your true beliefs, I'm afraid, and it isn't very positive.

REALLY??? You really believe that an ancient Mosaic plot is coming to fruition now, beginning with Communism, International Banking, and chrstian Zionism, and ending with "gay marriage?" You really believe a straight line connects all these things?

You sound like someone influenced by Chuck Carlson (of whom you've probably heard), or the people who push The Rapture Cult (which used to be pushed "unofficially" by the John Birch Society), or even the Robert Welch Foundation (former JBS members purged at one time) who fulminated against "Zionist Bolsheviks" and "queer Jews" while posting stuff by their equally queer Jew-hating hero, Justin Raimondo (but it's okay when he does it).

I don't know if you are malicious or sincere, Mr. "Freneau," but you are in a really dark place right now. Whether you decide to remain there is up to you. But if you keep on the path you are on now it's only a matter of time before you accuse HaShem Himself, Blessed Be His Name, of being (lehavdil 'elef 'alfei 'alafim havdalot!) "satan" himself. Do you really want to go there? "Judaism is the worship of 'satan?'" "When Jews recite their prayers they are praying to 'satan?'" "In the beginning 'satan' created the heavens and the earth?" Then it's just a hop, skip, and jump to calling the Creator of the Universe an "evil 'gxd'" and saying the chrstian "gxd" has come to liberate us from the evil universe He has created.

We have one thing in common, you and I--we both have the zeal of the convert. I don't know if you are reacting to having been a dispensationalist in your own past or not, but that's the impression I get. Well, I've been a Fundamentalist chrstian, a Birchite, and a Catholic.

You want to disagree with the claims and beliefs of Orthodox Judaism? Fine. Most people do (else there wouldn't be any other religions). But to blame our current crisis (and that's what it is) on little old bearded men in black via "international banking" and the Scofield Reference Bible is a very dark message.

I hope this posts.

>>>I don't know if you are aware of it, but I've been having connection troubles for some time and now another problem has come up, so my I've got a lot on my plate right now and answering you is not a priority, but I will (please G-d) try to answer you at least briefly.<<<

You are under no obligation to provide a prompt answer (or even answer, at all;) and I most certainly understand connection problems.

Also, this is a very long post, so I will respond in parts. I will also confine any scriptural references to the Authorized King James Version, for the benefit of others.

>>>What you don't seem to see is that your assumption that the "new testament" is "inspired" is just that--an assumption. The "inspiration" of the "new testament" is not self-evidently true. By assuming from the outset that it is, you are engaging in a logical fallacy called "affirmation of the consequent"--"proving" one's conclusion by simply assuming it from the outset.<<<

I must assume you have never read the new covenant, or you would better understand how the puzzles of the old covenant prophecies are solved by it, from the prophecies of Moses forward. Even without any sort of divine revelation pointing to the inspiration of the new covenant; the sheer complexity: the intricacies of a master puzzle, where the pieces fit and complement not only each other, but also the pieces of old covenant, point to underlying divine inspiration. No man has ever possessed more than a tiny fraction of the intelligence required to write such a mystery.

>>>The only Divine writings that have never had to be judged and canonized by human religious authorities are the Five Books of Moses, which were dictated to Moses from the Mouth of G-d (the Author) as to a stenographer. There is not a single letter of the Torah that isn't from Heaven. <<<

I agree.

>>>The Five Books of Moses sit in judgment on every single other book that claims to be Divinely inspired. <<<

I agree.

>>>Any book that contradicted them, or that predicted their replacement by something "higher," would never have been canonized in the first place. And anything that has been canonozed by proper Torah authorities (the Prophets and Hagiographa) must be interpreted in light of the Torah . . . the Torah is not interpreted in light of something that came later. Thus the Prophets, Psalms, etc., cannot by the very definition of things reveal that one day a "higher" truth will "supersede" (G-d forbid!) the Holy Torah.<<<

Your notion of "proper Torah authorities" is puzzling, in light of the disastrous history of the children of Israel. Maybe they were not so proper: only authoritative.

Whatever the case, there is no contradiction whatsoever in God's Word, from the book of Genesis to the Revelation of Jesus Christ. All the pieces of the puzzle fit nicely. However, there is, and has been, widespread misinterpretation of His Word by mere mortals, such as your "proper Torah authorities", which, unfortunately for the children of Israel, led to many severe punishments over the centuries, until the fulfilment of Deuteronomy 28 in AD70 when God divorced Israel, stripped them of their divine sanction to possess the land of Canaan, and married the Church.

[Note: the right of ownership of the land of Canaan was never promised to Israel; only the divine sanction of their right to possess it, as long as they were good. When they were no longer good, they lost the divine sanction.]

>>>The Prophets and Hagiographa were canonized by the Men of the Great Assembly, which included Prophets and other Biblical figures. They then closed the canon, meaning no other books can be added. Ever.<<<

That was pretty arrogant of them! Did they ask God for his permission to close the Canon? I seriously doubt it. They didn't believe the prophets, anyway; so it would have been academic. LOL!

In all fairness, I do believe that they got it right. To me it is as inspired as the new covenant: it is all God's Word!

>>>Those Prophets and Hagiographa, furthermore, are only there until the prophecies are fulfilled at which point they will no longer be read publicly during liturgical worship.<<<

They have been fulfilled by the new covenant, so you can quit reading them. Although you might consider keeping them around to occasionally remind yourself what not to do.

>>>The very fact that they're still there is proof that they have not yet been fulfilled.<<<

No, the fact that they are still there is because the rabbis do not believe or understand what is written.

>>>Only the Torah (which is forever in force) and the Book of Esther will remain forever canonical and read liturgically.<<<

According to who: a rabbi? LOL! You are jesting.

>>>The "new testament" was canonized by the historical Catholic/Orthodox church, which had no right to do so.<<<

Why not? Because your rabbi told you so?

>>>If you accept the "new testament" you must logically accept the authority of the canonizing authority. I'll take the dictated Word of G-d and the holy Prophets over that church, thank you very much.<<<

I don’t agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church; but it seems the old-timers got the new covenant canon correct. The books they chose seem to be a perfect fit. I have no alternative but to believe they were divinely inspired, at least for that mission.

Philip

>>>I have suspected for some time that your problem was not just with dispensationalism but with Judaism itself, of which you seem to consider pro-Jewish Fundamentalism a front group.<<<

You nailed it.

>>>This very post shows that some of your hostility towards Judaism and dispensationalism comes from the unfortunately very radical proclivities of very many Jews historically.<<<

That's about right.

>>>You seem to connect this radicalism with Orthodox Judaism itself, as if they are somehow connected.<<<

They are all antichristian. I oppose antichrist. It is really as simple as that. If you try to add to that you are wasting your bandwidth.

>>>Do you really believe that all those Hollywood sleezebags, dirty nightclub comics, what-have-you, are following the orders of some little old bearded ninety-year old man in Me'ah She`arim or Benei Beraq? Really??? <<<

No, but I believe they have been historically influenced by a "chosen people" attitude (or complex) promoted by the orthodoxy. You yourself are a testimony to that by recent posts.

>>>The vast majority of Charedi Jews live insular lives, without an Internet connection or even television, and have very little to do with the outside world. You don't blame liberal chrstianity on a "secret plot" by orthodox chrstianity. Why then do you see some sort of "chain of command" from the aforementioned bearded ninety year old man and the American Civil Liberties Union?<<<

I will agree that in the minds of many Jews, their relationship with each other is more along the lines of a limited-access, or separatist cult or clan; and not as the fulfilment of a religious mission.

>>>I have spent literally a lifetime trying to figure out why the Chosen People have become associated in the popular mind (and in so many of their own minds) with irreverence, blasphemy, and apostasy.<<<

Apparently, so did Moses. But Moses was not so blinded that he could not see that the days of the children of Israel as God's chosen people were numbered. To the contrary, he was most aware since he had to intervene, early on, when the Lord planned to destroy Israel and give the promises to Moses:

"And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?" (Exo 32:9-11 KJV)

>>>Over that lifetime I have come up with some theories that satisfy me (I doubt they would you), but they are simply too long and complex to elucidate in a single Free Republic post. Maybe one day I'll write them down in a series of documents on my word processor and make them available to anyone who's interested. Believe me, I very much wish I could satisfy you utterly in this one post, but it simply is not possible.<<<

I believe every word that Moses wrote down. It is, after all, God's Word. But I refuse to pick and choose from his words. I believe that is what sets us apart, more than anything else. It is most certainly what sets me apart from many of the Christian persuasion.

>>>It is telling that, like many anti-Jewish "palaeoconservatives," you resent the Divinely-established separation between `Am Yisra'el and the rest of the human race, and even associate it with the rampant egalitarianism and (Heavens-to-Betsy) "race-mixing" of liberalism. It has always intrigued me that people who attack egalitarianism and champion hierarchy suddenly become egalitarian hippies when it comes to the Jews. <<<

Let's be clear. I am not anti-Jewish. I happen to love Jews very much. Christianity was not founded by a bunch of Mongols, or Barbarians, or even by the Romans or Greeks. Rather it was founded by devout Jews, who, like others, were anticipating the arrival of the Messiah, and saw fulfillment in Jesus of Nazareth.

But even they were puzzled by the "missing Elijah" of Malachi, as interpreted by the scribes; until Jesus explained that "Elijah" was, in fact, John the Baptist: that fellow living in the wilderness, adorned in camel hair, and eating locusts and wild honey. The common people already believed John the Baptist was a prophet, so it didn't require a lot of convincing.

There was no conspiracy against Judaism; but rather the fulfilment of all the prophecies pointing to the new covenant. The new covenant contains and explains the law of the Lord: the law that is written in hearts of those who read or hear its words, and subsequently call upon the name of the Lord. Note "the law" is singular, as David received:

"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night." (Ps 1:1-2 KJV)

The law of the Lord, which is written in our hearts, is simply this:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Mt 7:12 KJV)

Most Jews follow that law in associations with other Jews, but not with the Gentiles. How can all nations possibly be blessed by Jews, when they maintain an attitude toward the Goyim like that? Therefore, the kingdom was taken away from the Jews and given to others.

Anyway, that single "law" from the new covenant replaced the myriad of laws that Moses received. Included in the new covenant is the provision for the Goyim (heathen) to enter into the fold that was once reserved only for Israel:

"And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isa 11:10-12 KJV)

Moses wrote of that, as well:

"They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation." (Deu 32:21 KJV)

As aforementioned, the intricacies of the new covenant forbid a forgery. For example, Jesus stated he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Mt 15:24,) and he sent his disciples only to the lost sheep (Mt 10:6;) until much later when he instructed them to include the Gentiles. That was a fulfillment of not only Isaiah 11:12 (highlighted above,) but other prophesies that point to the regathering of the lost or scattered sheep into a single fold under a single shepherd (Jn 10:14-16 KJV.)

Now, think of the difficulties of anyone weaving even that simple fulfillment into a theme that included all the anticipations, passions and traditions of those in first century Judaea, not to mention all the prophecies pointing to that era. There is no way the new covenant was written in any manner, other than by the "pen" of God.

>>>The reason, I have come to believe, is that the separateness of Israel is indeed what keeps the rest of the human race united. Were Israel to intermingle and disappear from the world (G-d forbid!), the various nations would separate from each other and drift off into a situation where each lived in its own subjective world, with its own "truth" and its own "gxd." So long as Israel remains separate from the rest of humanity as G-d intended, the human race will remain united under the single Objective G-d.<<<

I cannot imagine a more ridiculous statement.

>>>So no wonder "palaeos," who don't believe the human race are a single species bound by a single Truth, want to corrode Israel's integrity and see it melt away.<<<

That statement is self-contradictory, by definition. Israel is a separatist nation; and until it "melts away," that is, until it joins the rest of the human race, we cannot become the "single species" you point to; nor can we consider ourselves to be of "one blood" as the Lord hath declared we indeed are:

"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" (Acts 17:26 KJV)

There is no problem with people of common heritage gathering together into a single nation; rather it should be encouraged; but not as instruments of tyranny and greed, but as instruments of freedom and prosperity.

After Satan and his children are destroyed, there will still be nations which will require some time to heal from his disastrous deceptions that we are currently experiencing:

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." (Rev 22:2 KJV)

But the so-called "melting pot," falsely promoted by the Satan and his angels as "eliminating discrimination," is nation-destroying.

>>>If this idea (Israel's separateness keeps the rest of us stuck with each other) sounds strange and oxymoronic to you, consider that it is no different from the clergy/laity distinction in other religions. Most religions have clear and distinct boundaries between their priests and their laypeople (take a look at Catholicism for an example). Why would anyone who can accept this think that a similar situation with Israel as the clergy and the nations (which is the literal meaning of the world goyim, a word that appears throughout the Bible) as the laity is so unbearable?<<<

Maybe because discrimination is written into your theology, or your hearts. If, on the other hand, you lent to the Goyim without usury, and to the Jew with usury; or even, as the new covenant declares, assume there is no difference between the Jew and the Goyim and lend equally to all; I might consider your arguments to be something other than self-serving.

>>>Again, your resentment of liberal Jewish rhetoric about "discrimination" is clearly being focused on Orthodox Jews. Be assured that liberal Jews have little to no use for traditional Orthodox Jews (though some "Modern Orthodox" Jews like to mix the two). Again, if you think the ACLU is taking orders from some little bearded, black-hatted nonagenarian in Jerusalem you are barking up the wrong tree.<<<

Must I assume you are a liberal Jew simply because you have demonstrated discriminatory tendencies? Or should I consider your argument a half-hearted attempt at redirection?

Whatever the case, it solves nothing. Both "liberal" and orthodox Jews are "equal:" they are both antichrist.

Philip

>>>Finally, I wish to address this post of yours on another thread, which I saw last night--especially the final paragraph. All my life as a chrstian I was taught and believed that "your father the devil" referred to all "unsaved" people, without exception.<<<

What kind of Christian cannot spell "Christian?" LOL!

>>>Only racial anti-Semites consider it a reference to the ethnic origin of the Jewish People. <<<

I realize you are continuously on the hunt for anti-semites, which it appears you define as anyone who does not "tow your particular line;" but I suggest you move on to another line of reasoning.

>>>You try to get around this by applying it only to the leadership, but you evidently consider the Jewish religious leadership--meaning traditional Orthodox Jewish religious leadership--as the vehicle through which "the devil" infects the entire world with everything wrong with it today.<<<

That is only partly true. All antichristian religious leaders share in "infecting" the world, as you put it. Some, however, have a more vehement opposition to Christianity than others, and actively seek its marginalization and destruction.

>>>For your information, whatever you may think their faults are and whatever faults they may have, traditional Orthodox Jewish religious leadership is not implicated in the sexual depravity in which the world is drowning. Orthodox Judaism is one of the most "prudish" religions in the world. A woman is not even allowed to be alone in a room with a man who is not her husband or relative. Such people are not even allowed to touch each other. Even couples engaged to be married will not touch one another until afterwards.<<<

That has absolutely nothing to do with the dangers of antichristian religions. The problem is that they seek to marginalize and destroy the one true religion, Christianity, which is comprised of the ones who have traditionally fought against such filth. One cannot rightly claim they do not support pornography, when they actively seek to destroy those who fight against it.

>>>And in fact (you may find this interesting) it is known historically that during the Roman occupation of Israel, when a Roman soldier exposed his privates publicly all those "liberal chr*st-killers" responded with a riot. While Greeks and Romans were worshiping the naked human form, the Jews were the Puritans of the ancient world. There is one and only one way in which traditional Orthodox Jewish religious authorities today are implicated in our current situation, and that is by quietism and silence and "business-as-usual." And that's it.<<<

My understanding is that first century Jerusalem was a cesspool of filth, not too dissimilar to Sodom and Gomorrah.

>>>Now, to something really important, and I hope you will read the following if you read nothing else. The paragraph in question links three things together as the cause of all the evil in the world in our day: Bolshevism, the Federal Reserve, and the Scofield Reference Bible. Hmm. You know, I've read stuff like this before. You call the ancient Jewish authorities and the Bolsheviks "children of the devil" (ie, the Bolsheviks are carrying out the program of the Torah Authorities of J*sus' time, ie, Communism is an Orthodox Jewish plot), and you then couple this "Jewish Communism" with the Federal Reserve (Jewish International Bankers!!!) and the Scofield Reference Bible (Zionist Fundamentalism). This tells me quite a lot about your true beliefs, I'm afraid, and it isn't very positive.<<<

Why stop there. Why not explain to us how much those fellows have contributed to world peace, harmony and prosperity? You won't, because you know they have contributed exactly nothing to the world, but grief. So, how do you defend them? With the race card? Certainly you can do better than that?

>>>REALLY??? You really believe that an ancient Mosaic plot is coming to fruition now, beginning with Communism, International Banking, and chrstian Zionism, and ending with "gay marriage?" You really believe a straight line connects all these things?<<<

I don't know about any ancient Mosaic plot. Maybe you would like to share your conspiracy theory with us.

What I do know is that, from the beginning of Christianity, Judaism has been at "war" with Christianity. You are living proof that little has changed.

>>>You sound like someone influenced by Chuck Carlson (of whom you've probably heard), or the people who push The Rapture Cult (which used to be pushed "unofficially" by the John Birch Society), or even the Robert Welch Foundation (former JBS members purged at one time) who fulminated against "Zionist Bolsheviks" and "queer Jews" while posting stuff by their equally queer Jew-hating hero, Justin Raimondo (but it's okay when he does it).<<<

I am unfamiliar with all of those, except for the John Birch Society, which I know in name only. Did you pull the other names out of some cult conspiracy magazine?

>>>I don't know if you are malicious or sincere, Mr. "Freneau," but you are in a really dark place right now.<<<

Actually, the light here is marvellously bright; and it gets brighter every time you post. Are you not frightened that your true motives might be exposed?

>>>Whether you decide to remain there is up to you.<<<

I will continue to fight against those who undermine Christianity. Count on it.

>>>But if you keep on the path you are on now it's only a matter of time before you accuse HaShem Himself, Blessed Be His Name, of being (lehavdil 'elef 'alfei 'alafim havdalot!) "satan" himself. <<<

No offense, but are you a member of some type of cult? That is clearly a false prophecy; and it is the cults that have (not always but) traditionally produced false prophecies.

>>>Do you really want to go there? "Judaism is the worship of 'satan?'"<<<

All antichristians are instruments of Satan, by definition:

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." (1Jn 2:22 KJV)

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." (1Jn 4:1-3 KJV)

Now, if someone is "not of God," as the scripture states, who exactly is he "of?"

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1Jn 3:8 KJV)

The Son of God will destroy the works of the devil. Of that, there is no doubt.

>>>"When Jews recite their prayers they are praying to 'satan?'" "In the beginning 'satan' created the heavens and the earth?" Then it's just a hop, skip, and jump to calling the Creator of the Universe an "evil 'gxd'" and saying the chrstian "gxd" has come to liberate us from the evil universe He has created.<<<

LOL! I am reasonably certain the following people recited similar prayers:

"Ye [Scribes and Pharisees] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (Jn 8:44 KJV)

The Apostle Paul, formerly Saul, was somewhat kinder to his fellow Jews:

"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:" (1Th 2:14-15 KJV)

That came from a man with these former credentials:

"If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I [Paul] more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Phi 3:4-6 KJV)

>>>We have one thing in common, you and I--we both have the zeal of the convert. I don't know if you are reacting to having been a dispensationalist in your own past or not, but that's the impression I get. Well, I've been a Fundamentalist chrstian, a Birchite, and a Catholic.<<<

You cannot spell Christian, so your claims are doubtful.

I, personally, am not, nor have ever been, a follower of any particular Christian theology; and before last August, I had no clue what a dispensationalist believed, nor had I ever heard of the Scofield Bible. If I had to pick the best fit to my eschatology, it would be postmillennialism. But, until last August, I didn't know what postmillennialists believed; and I am still unsure.

In any case, I do not agree completely with any established or defined doctrine. There are simply too many round pegs that must be fit into square holes, in every doctrine I have studied.

>>>You want to disagree with the claims and beliefs of Orthodox Judaism? Fine. Most people do (else there wouldn't be any other religions). But to blame our current crisis (and that's what it is) on little old bearded men in black via "international banking" and the Scofield Reference Bible is a very dark message.<<<

Anyone who pretends that Orthodox Judaism is harmless is either naïve, or a deceiver. There is no middle ground.

>>>I hope this posts.<<<

There is always hope.

Philip

>>>By ‘antichrist’ do you mean all those that don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah? <<<

That is the definition of antichrist.

>>>If so then all non Christians are de facto antichrist. Atheists, Bhuddists, Bahai, Hindus...<<<

No. There are many who have never heard of Christ, and many others know little about him. Jesus taught that his law was the most important thing, which is to love thy neighbour. Therefore, all (everyone) will be judged according to their works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil.

I believe you have to personally deny that Jesus is the Christ to be antichrist, or demonstrate it in your works. There are four examples in the scriptures. See what you think:

1 John 2:18-19;
1 John 2:22
1 John 2:21-23
2 John 4:1-3

Of course, if you have never heard of Christ, then it may be difficult to deny him. In fact, Paul implied that some Gentiles were saved by their works, even though they never heard of Christ; because they, by nature had his law written in their hearts. See if you interpret it the way I do:

"(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" (Rom 2:13-15 KJV)

>>>About the lending thing, you’re confusing Talmudic arguments among various Rabbis with unalterable law. This prescription comes from a time when Jews lived in tightly knit agrarian communities and could not trust that lending to travelers from outside of the community would be a wise choice. There are also Torah authorities who claim that Jews should not charge interest from Christians or Muslims since they are of the derived faiths...or even not charge interest to people you know well regardless of their background.<<<

I'm not sure what your point is. This is the law regarding lending to non-Israelites:

"Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it." (Deu 23:20 KJV)

Jesus changed that and all other laws combined, to this:

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Gal 5:14 KJV)

That law will work for the entire world, once the works of Satan are destroyed.

Philip

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.