Posted on 06/09/2014 9:26:16 PM PDT by Salvation
yes ... I will have to answer that later when I have more time.
Concerning the Peter passage, the simple fact that you mention "allusion" means that the passage is not as straightforward as you imagine.
If Peter is saying baptism is required for salvation, how can you possibly harmonize the Romans 10 passage (and an absolutely huge array of other passages) that do not mention baptism at all?
This is exactly what I mean about using a difficult passage to support doctrine when there are many more passages that are straightforward. If one passage does not support another, you have one of the interpretations wrong. There can be no contradications in scripture.
Peter cannot say one thing and Paul another ...
On that we agree.
If Peter is saying baptism is required for salvation, how can you possibly harmonize the Romans 10 passage (and an absolutely huge array of other passages) that do not mention baptism at all?
In brief, because the mere absence of something in Scripture doesn't necessarily imply it isn't required and/or found elsewhere in Scripture. In other words I'm not saying (and I don't think the Church does either) that one Scriptural verse or passage contains all that is required for salvation.
Salvation is a life time process. It seems to me many Protestants/non-Catholic Christians want to make it into a one time event but it's not. Hence, there isn't going to be one Scripture passage that contains all that is required for salvation.
No, Baptism is required, belief and acceptance of Jesus as one's Lord and Savior is required, and repentence of sin is required. All are required for salvation but you won't find all those teachings wrapped up in one single verse or passage. They are taught in different areas, granted, but not one passage.
I do not wish to debate this with you though, so if you have any final thoughts you'd like to share along these lines (what is required for salvation) feel free to share. I'm far more interested in how you are going to answer Petronius' question: Where do you find in Scripture that the Scriptures are sufficient for salvation?
Because while you will find the requirements I listed above in Scripture, you won't find answers to such questions like "are we eternally secure or can our salvation be lost?"
At least this is my contention (and I'd wager Petronius' as well although he can correct me if I'm mistaken).
So I look forward to your reply.
Your assertion....rules of the board you have to offer proof.
If not, I call bogus stat.
If a guy can read, he can know what the bible says...
If the Gospels say works are required for salvation and the Epistles say works for salvation will reward you with damnation, what do you do??? Do you just pick one or the other???
When Romans 2 says you are justifed by works and Romans 3 says you are not justified by works, do you go with one chapter or the other???
The people who use your argument obviously don't know what the bible says...You're just repeating what your religion told you; which is wrong...
The same is true of OSAS ... the scriptures cannot teach OSAS and 'you can loose it' ...
I have always found the passages used to argue 'you can loose it' to be obscure.
If regeneration is a work of the Holy Spirit, which the scriptures say is a miracle and is wrought by the power of God ... where in scripture do you find the process whereby I as a mere human can undo my own regeneration?
Jesus said that some demons cannot come out except by His power through prayer and fasting ... I don't have the power to combat demons ... yet I am to believe that I DO have the power to throw out the Holy Spirit from within me ... in my own power I can undo the miracle of regeneration?
If you could loose eternal life, it cannot be eternal.
I have never had anyone of the Arminian persuasion explain this sufficiently to me. It always come down to the Hebrews passage; which no two interpreters in all of church history agree on.
I don't see how the Scriptures are sufficient to resolve this.
It's not that difficult...You don't add 'Mary is the mother of God' and you don't take scripture like 'and upon this Rock I will build my church' and claim the Rock is Peter when the scripture is not clear on the statement...
Most problems come from people adding to or removing words from the scripture, or, just not believing what they read...
-— You don’t add ‘Mary is the mother of God’ and you don’t take scripture like ‘and upon this Rock I will build my church’ and claim the Rock is Peter when the scripture is not clear on the statement... -—
Many Protestants have studied the writings of the early Church Fathers in an effort to resolve these seeming ambiguities. Many of them have become Catholic.
SECOND REQUEST:
I looked in your article, but I do not see the Official List of Traditions the Apostle Paul’s referred to.
Will you please post it for the good of all Christians?
Mithras, evidently.
the rcc is hardly blameless regarding sowing discord among christians.
wanting bibles that people could read in their own languages brought anathemas and death. wanting services that people’could understand in their own language, ditto. wanting reforms that would get away from unbiblical sinful practices and the overwhelming legalism that the lay man couldn’t rebuke b/c they didn’t know latin and couldn’t defend themself with God’s Word b/c it was deliberately kept from them, ditto.
the rcc kept the laity uneducated and in the dark and totally dependent on them, on purpose. God’s Word is for everyone not just clergy. the laity were slaves. can’t teach them latin. can’t let’themhave bibles they can read’in their language. can’t have a service they could actually understand in their own tongue. gotta keep the peasants down under our thumbs. under our crushing legalism.
i can answer’your formaldehyde/snake question with the same line Jesus did: do not put to the test the Lord your God.
teachers are not perfect.
the bereans searched the scritpures daily looking for answers to questions.they were not told to stop or condemned for doing so.
the average christian is told to test all things by scripture. you say they may get things wrong, or ignore a truth they don’t like. i say anyone can, including teachers and church leaders.
i have heard several folks say they’ve read the same passages several times at’different times and have found something new, every time.
I guess you missed this in the original article:
He wrote: “It is quite evident that this passage furnishes no argument whatever that the sacred Scripture, without Tradition, is the sole rule of faith; for, although sacred Scripture is profitable for these four ends, still it is not said to be sufficient. The Apostle [Paul] requires the aid of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15). Moreover, the Apostle here refers to the scriptures which Timothy was taught in his infancy.
“Now, a good part of the New Testament was not written in his boyhood: Some of the Catholic epistles were not written even when Paul wrote this, and none of the books of the New Testament were then placed on the canon of the Scripture books. He refers, then, to the scriptures of the Old Testament, and, if the argument from this passage proved anything, it would prove too much, viz., that the scriptures of the New Testament were not necessary for a rule of faith.”
Furthermore, Protestants typically read 2 Timothy 3:16-17 out of context. When read in the context of the surrounding passages, one discovers that Paul’s reference to Scripture is only part of his exhortation that Timothy take as his guide Tradition and Scripture. The two verses immediately before it state: “But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim. 3:14–15).
Paul tells Timothy to continue in what he has learned for two reasons: first, because he knows from whom he has learned it—Paul himself—and second, because he has been educated in the scriptures. The first of these is a direct appeal to apostolic tradition, the oral teaching which the apostle Paul had given Timothy. So Protestants must take 2 Timothy 3:16-17 out of context to arrive at the theory of sola scriptura. But when the passage is read in context, it becomes clear that it is teaching the importance of apostolic tradition!
The Bible denies that it is sufficient as the complete rule of faith. Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15).
This oral teaching was accepted by Christians, just as they accepted the written teaching that came to them later. Jesus told his disciples: “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ; the Church would be his representative. He commissioned them, saying, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations” (Matt. 28:19).
And how was this to be done? By preaching, by oral instruction: “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ” (Rom. 10:17). The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit “Christ’s word” to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing. The Bible nowhere supports either notion.
Further, it is clear that the oral teaching of Christ would last until the end of time. “’But the word of the Lord abides for ever.’ That word is the good news which was preached to you” (1 Pet. 1:25). Note that the word has been “preached”—that is, communicated orally. This would endure. It would not be
supplanted by a written record like the Bible (supplemented, yes, but not supplanted), and would continue to have its own authority.
This is made clear when the apostle Paul tells Timothy: “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). Here we see the first few links in the chain of apostolic tradition that has been passed down intact from the apostles to our own day. Paul instructed Timothy to pass on the oral teachings (traditions) that he had received from the apostle. He was to give these to men who would be able to teach others, thus perpetuating the chain. Paul gave this instruction not long before his death (2 Tim. 4:6–8), as a reminder to Timothy of how he should conduct his ministry
Then there is a limitation placed on all the books with this understanding.
Again, catholics are cherry-picking verses to prove their point without taking Scripture into context.
The point of the verses in John 20:30-31 is to say that not everything Jesus did was written down, but what was written down was done so that we may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Once again, a clear reading of the Bible is sufficient to learn the meaning of the text.
How is this any different from a church replacing a pastor who dies or retires? Every church needs a new pastor from time to time.
Paul instructed Timothy to pass on the oral teachings (traditions) that he had received from the apostle. He was to give these to men who would be able to teach others, thus perpetuating the chain. Paul gave this instruction not long before his death (2 Tim. 4:6–8), as a reminder to Timothy of how he should conduct his ministry.
And just what would those oral traditions be? It's the Gospel message that Paul had written about so we could have the recorded Word so there wouldn't be these endless and pointless debates about adding to Scripture which the RCC seems to love to do.
It's obviously not the assumption of Mary, her sinlessness, perpetual virginity, penance, indulgences, etc. Paul never wrote about these. We have not idea if he did or didn't talk about these so we must defer to the written Word.
Once again, let's look at the text in question in its context. I've included 2 Tim 3:10 through 2 Tim 4:5
As we read the text notice the admonitions beginning in verse 13 about evil men and impostors deceiving and being deceived.
v16 notes that ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God....nothing about RCC tradition being inspired by God.
What is the Scripture? The Old and New Testament. God in His foreknowledge had the Holy Spirit move Paul to write this knowing there would be debates in the future about what is the Word.
2 Tim 4:3-4 is where we really need to pay attention for it warns about people not wanting to endure sound doctrine, that will accumulate teachers in accordance to their own desires...they will turn from truth to myths.
If that is not a clear indication of the need to rely on the Bible and the Bible alone, I don't know what is.
Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, 11persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! 12Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
5But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Your church fathers did not write the scriptures...They 'comment' on the scriptures...Far more Catholics have left your religion than Protestants have joined it...You may want to chose a different argument...
It is made to the Eleven, not to all the followers of IHS. BY the end of Acts 3 the "Eleven plus one," are the apostles to whose teaching (and fellowship) "they" are devoted.
It is clear from Acts (and Galatians) that, even if we Catholics insist that Peter was the first chief apostle, we can't possibly maintain that his day-to-day teaching and example were perfect.
Yet this imperfect and seemingly contentious group did meet to produce authoritative teaching.
IF we can rest in saying, "Teachers are not perfect," and in leaving it there, then I don't see how we have anything to say to the various groups which persist to this day and which make what certainly SEEM to be "Judaizing" assertions about how we ought to live.
I don't see how in that case any one group has anything to say to any other. "Teachers are not perfect. We think YOUR teachers are imperfect on this matter. YOU think OUR teachers are. Have a nice day." What else can be said? And what then of a guidance of the Holy Spirit?
And finally, that seems to come down, "Not all are teachers," but they might as well be, since any one of them may be imperfect -- so even if you're not a teacher you must be teacher to yourself.
THis is clearly not a conclusive argument -- or meant to be one. But it seems to me the problem of "sola Scriptura" and of what seems to be its necessary consequence, a Church whose bounds on earth are not clear.
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