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To: Mrs. Don-o
What God's angel said she was. Kecharitomene. Means "full of grace." The opposite of "full on sin." To put it in the strongest way, the angel precedes it with "Chaire," which grammatically is always followed with either a name or a title, which in English would be capitalized. So, "Hail, O Lady Full-of-Grace!"

Nope...the Greek doesn't have it that way. It literally reads: Greetings, you favored with grace! The Lord is with you.

you favored with grace is not in caps as the word Lord later is.

you make the error of using English norms to translate Greek.

Besides in not one of the major translations is this in caps.

In fact, none use the phrase "Hail, O Lady Full of Grace as you did.

Again, another false interpretation by catholics attempting to prove something that's just not there.

The root word charitoo is also use in Ephesians 1:6.(echaritosen). In both instances is means God extending Himself to freely bestow grace (favor). From Helps Word Studies

Bottom line: It is not a tile for Mary

116 posted on 07/30/2014 5:41:21 AM PDT by ealgeone (obama, borderof)
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To: ealgeone
I don't think you quite got what I said. (Not that I blame you. I sometimes write with insufficient precision. So by your leave, I will try again.)

I didn't say "all the various translators have used this wording," I said this is what Greek grammar would indicate.

Here's the necessary Greek grammar link.

There are, of course other grammarians who point out the same grammatical significance --- not being an independent expert on Koine Greek, I rely on scholarly testimony.

Notice these translators' notes. The first is an explanation of the difference between "Pleres Charitos" (a more common form of being highly favored) and Kecharitomene (or Kekaritomene), a term not used anywhere else in the New Testament, the LXX, or any other Greek text, Classical, Koine or Modern. It is simply one-off, unique:

"The reason Luke didn't choose PLERES CHARITOS for Mary is that the phrase cannot, in itself, distinguish time, agent or continuity, whereas KEKERITOMENE can. Being a perfect, passive, participle that is applied on a titular basis, KEKERITOMENE denotes that: (a) the state of grace began in past time, (b) it is a completed and accomplished action, (c) its results continue into the present, (d) that the verbal title is received by Mary from an outside agent.

Although these four grammatical characteristics do not prove the Immaculate Conception, KEKARITOMENE is the best Greek word that could have been chosen to coincide with it. Any other Greek word would have been inadequate or even faulty. That is all we can really say, grammatically speaking."

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament)."

The ongoing scholarly discussion about how to best translate this word, is due to the fact that the word is unique in the world, used only in the Gospel of Luke. It has the characteristics of being a title with a feminine ending, and also of being the past perfect passive verb form. The root verb is "charitoo," to fill with grace. The "past, perfect, passive" form means that it was done ab initio, from the beginning, it was done fully, and it was done TO her (it was not something she did herself.)

It's hard to fit all his into an English phrase, because that is a tense of verb we don't even have in English; nor do we have verb forms rendered as personal names or titles.

(I'm thinking the nearest English analogy would be something like if a gal won a competition for dressing well, somebody might address her as "Hey, Miss Best-Dressed" --- but only if somebody else had dressed her!)

And as for "Chaire", grammatically it is followed by a name or title, and thus the word following it should be capitalized, as in Χαῖρε ὁ βασιλεὺς. If the translators do this when the word is followed by King or Rabbi (as they do according to this Biblical Concordance), they SHOULD also have done it before Mary's title, which was given her by the angel.

As always, the translator parses it out as well as he can.

This is not, as I said, a mathematical proof. It's something that lends a certain weight as evidence. It prompts the legitimate question, "Why would Luke use a completely unheard-of word like "Kecharitomene" (instead of "pleres charitos")?

How would you answer that question?

We --- you and I ---DO share the belief that the Gospel is Divinely-inspired. See my point? (I'm asking whether you "see" my point. I'm not asking if you agree with it!)

122 posted on 07/30/2014 7:24:45 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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