Posted on 08/01/2015 3:50:22 PM PDT by Salvation
Meant to ping you to #20 as well.
We have to keep the original meaning of the word when studying the word or we run the risk of misunderstanding the original intent of the writer. Not sure how these have changed or their context as used today. I like to stay with the original intent.
“You are applying OT thinking to the New Testament covenant.”
“I would like to hear what is the non-Catholic explanation of how the following words have changed meaning over the years. What is the original meaning as opposed to how it is used today?”
When reading a text written in 1400 AD for example, what matters is NOT what the word came to mean in 1900, but what it meant in 1400 AD. When the KJV says, “Thou shalt not kill”, the word “kill” meant what we now call “murder”. So the intent of the translation made in the 1600s was to convey to its readers in 1600 that you should not murder - because that is how they understood the word.
The word “presbuteros” meant elder. That people hundreds of year later came to associate the meaning of priest with that word is irrelevant to what the writer wrote. It is important to look at what the meaning of the word was to Paul and Paul’s listeners, because Paul wrote it for those listeners.
As for applying OT thinking to the New Covenant - that is what the people arguing FOR priests do - import the role of a priest from the OT and try to apply it to a different covenant - a better one:
“11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption...
...For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.” - Hebrews 9
**The word “presbuteros” meant elder. That people hundreds of year later came to associate the meaning of priest with that word is irrelevant to what the writer wrote. It is important to look at what the meaning of the word was to Paul and Paul’s listeners, because Paul wrote it for those listeners.**
And Paul was a Bishop. Note his ordination of Timothy.
The question remains and so does witness to your dodge.
See post 20.
Thanks for the detailed description of presbyteros...
I saw it, and DID respond to it. See my post #23...
;>(
“Original intent has nothing to do with current meaning for those words...”
No, but it has EVERYTHING to do with what the Apostles were teaching!
“And Paul was a Bishop.”
Well, I suspect an Apostle would also qualify as an overseer, or “bishop”. Or an elder.
“The Greek word for elder, presbuteros, is used about seventy times in the New Testament. Like zaqen, which means “aged” or “bearded”; sab, which means “gray-headed”; and our English word elder; presbuteros has reference to mature age. For example, in Acts 2:17, Peter quotes Joel 2:28: “Your old men shall dream dreams.” The Hebrew word used for “old men” in Joel is zaqen, and the Greek word used in Acts is presbuteros. Used in that sense, elder does not constitute an official title; it simply means “an older man.”
In 1 Timothy 5:2, the feminine form of presbuteros is used to refer to older women. There, older women are contrasted with younger ones: “[Appeal to] the older women as mothers, and the younger women as sisters, in all purity.” In that context, the term again signifies only mature age, not an office in the church.
First Peter 5:5 contains a similar usage: “You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders.” There, as in 1 Timothy 5:2, the word is used to contrast between age and youth. In such a context, presbuteros is generally understood to mean only “an older person,” not necessarily an officeholder of any kind. That is the primary meaning of the term in general Greek usage.
In the time of Christ, presbuteros was a familiar term. It is used twenty-eight times in the New Testament to refer to a group of ex officio spiritual leaders of Israel: “the chief priests and elders” (Matthew 27:3); “the scribes and elders” (27:41); “officers of the temple and elders” (Luke 22:52); and “rulers and elders of the people” (Acts 4:8). In each of those instances and every similar usage, presbuteros refers to recognized spiritual leaders in Israel who aren’t defined as priests of any kind. These seem to be the Sanhedrin, the highest ruling body in Judaism in Jesus’ time.
Matthew 15:2 and Mark 7:3 and 5 use the phrase “tradition of the elders.” There presbuteros refers to an ancestry of spiritual fathers who passed down principles that governed religious practice. These were the teachers who determined Jewish tradition.
In this sense, elder is equivalent to rabbi and may or may not signify official status.”
Also:
“First Peter 5:1–2 brings all three terms together. Peter instructs the elders to be good bishops as they pastor: “Therefore, I exhort the elders [presbuteros] among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd [poimaino] the flock of God among you, exercising oversight [episkopeo] not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God.”
http://www.gty.org/resources/positions/P11/Answering-the-Key-Questions-About-Elders
I love Hebrews. There’s enough dunamis in that letter to blow up every dead religion on the planet and then some!
Yep it did, and Gospel meant good news, apostle, meant one sent, scripture, meant writing. You have hung your hat on the wrong argument.
. What is the catholic response to daniel1212's reply?
. If there is no reasoned reply this thread available then this discussion is concluded.
Information? or spin?
The BIBLE doesn't contain this many words about a priest!
Jude 1:3 Douay-Rheims Bible
Dearly beloved, taking all care to write unto you concerning your common salvation, I was under a necessity to write unto you: to beseech you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.
http://www.openbible.info/topics/saints
Chirp...
Isaiah 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Was GOD talking about Rome's alleged binding power here?
“You have hung your hat on the wrong argument.”
No, the folks who claim “presbuteros” means “priest” have made the wrong argument, since the word did NOT mean that. There was a Greek word for priest, and if Paul had meant “priest” he would have used it - not “presbuteros”.
There is no such thing as a christian priest other than a universal priesthood offering sacrifices of thanksgiving, praise and good deeds. That has huge implications for the theology of the Lord’s Supper, done in remembrance of Jesus - not a perpetual blood sacrifice offered in Mass.
See post 31.
Then I will have to insist that from now on all non-Catholics use these words as they were initially used and only that way from now on:
βιβλίο
πτόησιν 1 Peter 3:6
μεριμνᾷς Luke 10:41
ἀναστροφήν Galations 1:13
ἀπόστολος, Romans 1:1
εὐαγγελίου Mark 1:1
γραφὴ John 7:38
ἐπισκευασάμενοι Acts 21:15
ἐπίσαγμα Leviticus 15:9
λαμπρὰν James 2:2-3
I am certain that if you (all) want to establish a precedent that you (all) are willing to live by the exact same rules. I will be adding more to this list as the mood strikes me.
Yup...But the bible does contain enough words about priests, bishops and elders that we can easily tell the difference and separate them to apply where they belong...
As with everything else in the bible, we don't have to go outside of its pages to understand it...
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