Are We Modern Clergy Even Remotely Close to St. Paul’s Description of the Earliest Preachers?

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 07-05-17 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[Mark17]

You mean watching the same play, with prescribed largely perfunctory prayers and responses, ritual readings, and a 10 minute sermonette by "priests" in ostentatious garments is not what you see in the record of the NT testament church (rhetorical ?)

NO

[Luircin]

Coupla things in response to your post and the thread.

1: Your situation is a little similar to mine, except for the fact that I didn’t walk away from a Catholic church, I walked away from an ELCA Lutheran church. They didn’t speak Latin but they might as well have spoken Latin, considering the unfortunate SJW gobbeldygook that they KEPT ON SPOUTING. It was like I was thirsty but they kept on giving me salt water. Went to a small startup LCMS congregation at age 19 and never looked back. Now just a month ago I was ordained as an LCMS pastor, and I credit huge swaths of that to the fact that I FINALLY got to hear Jesus being preached.

2: We here in the Missouri Synod (and it really should be all Lutherans, but the ELCA has drunk the SJW Kool-Aid) make a point to preach both Word and Sacrament. Sacrament being defined as something physical that has the Word attached to it, specifically for the purpose of delivering God’s grace. (Now that’s a little complicated; we still believe in salvation by grace through faith, but for now let’s just say that belief in Christ is what saves, just that the manner of that belief can come in pure Word, but also in the Word attached to the waters of baptism or the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion. Aaaanyways.) But the focus HAS to be on the work of Christ, not our own works. We can’t work our way into eternal life; he died for us. A church service that doesn’t have the Word is no worship at all.

3: I am just praying that if the persecution that Paul speaks about arrives, that I will have the strength and the faith to persevere through it.

After reading your post, I just figured I might as well share my own experiences between churches where Jesus is central and churches where Jesus is... not.

[Luircin]

You mean watching the same play, with prescribed largely perfunctory prayers and responses, ritual readings, and a 10 minute sermonette by “priests” in ostentatious garments is not what you see in the record of the NT testament church (rhetorical ?)

***

I often have fun answering rhetorical questions, so I’ll answer yours! In a positive way, I hope!

As for your question, the answer comes as well, that depends!

I’ve done some research into the earliest churches, and from what we can tell, there WAS a certain amount of ritual and recitation. At the very least over the Lord’s Supper, as well as the confession of faith in the Creeds, which came into being before the Bible was compiled. Some of the earliest canons of Scripture were compared to the earliest Creeds in order to ensure that they were ACTUALLY the Word, and not just Bible fan-fic.

At the same time, Jesus DID blast the people who recited overly-long prayers without any meaning to them.

So.

I suppose the difference is, is the Word in that ritual, and does it have meaning for the church, or do we just do it because we’ve always done it, and is nothing more than empty words?

[Luircin]

The rates of child molestation in non-Catholic churches is far higher. Check it out.

***

1: Prove it. Preferably a breakdown by denomination, not just lumping it all together.

2: Did the churches in question throw them out or try to hide it, like the Roman hierarchy did?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“The rates of child molestation in non-Catholic churches is far higher. Check it out.”

All molestations are wrong. Perhaps you old come right out and say so?

[daniel1212]

I’ve done some research into the earliest churches, and from what we can tell, there WAS a certain amount of ritual and recitation.

You did not get that from the inspired record of the NT church, and i think the last book was penned by about 90 AD.

Not that any amount of ritual and recitation must be bad, and there was some ritual in baptism, ordination and anointing of the sick. And we all have some ritual in our life, and and recitation "Praise the Lord!") in our life. But the born from above believer is to be sensitive to the Lord's leading in obeying Scripture, and be ready to change our plans accordingly, and not become set in our ritual practices. However, as regards church meetings, what we see in the descriptions of NT meetings in Acts onward is not the Catholic theater described before, and sometimes not what you see in typical evangelical meetings.

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. (1 Corinthians 14:26)

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together. And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him. When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed. And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted. (Acts 20:7-12)

[Salvation]

You can not judge ALL priests by such a small sampling.

[Salvation]

Fox News Report
In fundamentalist and evangelical churches -- sexual abuse
Other non-Catholic churches and sexual abuse

[Luircin]

Well done.

Now take a closer look and see that most of the abuse occurred in ‘churches’ that were left-leaning at best, and fewer in conservative denominations.

The point I try to make here is that the enemy is not Catholic, nor is it Protestant, nor evangelical.

The enemy is the godless left that is trying to infiltrate ALL churches. Unfortunately it is approaching critical mass in Catholicism, and if history is any message here, there’s either going to be a massive schism or the left steamrolling all dissent.

Denials and cover-ups don’t help; we all need to clean house and we need to do so ASAP.

[Luircin]

You did not get that from the inspired record of the NT church, and i think the last book was penned by about 90 AD.

***

No, I didn’t get it out of the Bible, but I did get some information out of contemporary historians.

It’s not canonical, but it does provide some information of how things worked. The record is sadly extremely incomplete, but there were records of common prayers spoken over the Lord’s Supper.

IN Scripture, Luke 22 and 1 Corinthians 11 and the similarities suggest that there was a formula already in use for the Lord’s Supper before either of those writings were penned.

Though also from what we can tell, the extreme ritualized worship of the Catholic churches was NOT in effect. Communal worship was more like a communal meal combined with preaching and teaching. (And we see that part in Scripture too, just from what you posted.)

I’m not trying to pick a fight of course; this is just a subject I’m passionate about, and I had some information to add to the discussion!

[daniel1212]

No, I didn’t get it out of the Bible, but I did get some information out of contemporary historians. It’s not canonical, but it does provide some information of how things worked. The record is sadly extremely incomplete, but there were records of common prayers spoken over the Lord’s Supper. IN Scripture, Luke 22 and 1 Corinthians 11 and the similarities suggest that there was a formula already in use for the Lord’s Supper before either of those writings were penned. Though also from what we can tell, the extreme ritualized worship of the Catholic churches was NOT in effect. Communal worship was more like a communal meal combined with preaching and teaching. (And we see that part in Scripture too, just from what you posted.) I’m not trying to pick a fight of course; this is just a subject I’m passionate about, and I had some information to add to the discussion!

Understood. The difference btwn instituting what the NT record of the church manifests them to have believed, versus being institutionalized.

[Elsie]

Are We Modern Clergy Even Remotely Close to St. Paul’s Description of the Earliest Preachers?

The answer; of course; is no.

But the REAL question is...

Does Rome still teach the simple truth as St. Paul ETAL did in the beginning?

[Elsie]

Especially in America, a large portion of the Church is largely irrelevant because it is not resisting the culture of Sodom.

As did Lot.

He LIKED living on the well watered plain.

Genesis 13:10

[Elsie]

...because it is not resisting the culture of Sodom.

A BIBLICAL Message to LGBT folks EVERYWHERE!

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Genesis 13:13

Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.

Genesis 18:20-21
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

Genesis 19:4-7
4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7. and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.

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Leviticus niv

18:22 Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

20:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

 

 

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Psalms 12:8 The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men.

Isaiah 3:9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

2 Peter 2:13b Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

---

Romans 1     New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

 

 18 The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.

 

24 Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. 29 They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. 

---

2 Peter 2

1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

---

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But there IS hope!!!

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

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If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The Health Risks of gay sex.

Psalms 12:8 The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men.

Isaiah 3:9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

2 Peter 2:13b Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

---

Romans 1     New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

 

 18 The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.

 

24 Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. 29 They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. 

---

2 Peter 2

1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

---

---

But there IS hope!!!

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

---

If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

---

---

The Health Risks of gay sex.

[Elsie]

Amen!

[Elsie]

"We spend more time on being Catholic and not so much leading people to Jesus for salvation"

You just described FR Catholics to a "T"!

[Elsie]

How was he altered?

NOT with pinking shears!

[Elsie]

He delighted to do the WILL of the Father.

Well; except for that ONE thing...

[Elsie]

In fact are you aware that 50 percent of the claims against priests were false?

HMMMmmm...

That must mean that half of them were TRUE.

[Elsie]

ARRRGH!!!

WHY didn't I read ahead??