Posted on 07/12/2017 11:36:21 AM PDT by MHGinTN
The following is 'an' essay on Luke 21, as relating to The Rapture of Believers and Jesus's Prophecy for Jerusalem. Another thread is stuck where this would have been posted as a response. I'll ping the freepers who might have interest. The essay is long, so it will be divided into to posts, the body of the thread then the body of comments.
Before setting to this post, I listened repeatedly to Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, having gone to bed listening to Matthew 24 from the Andrew Scourby reading of the King James Bible. Much diverging opinion exists regarding the timing of the Rapture of The Bride of Christ / The Body of Christ.
Discussions over the Gospel handling of end times is sometimes heated and posters appear to be 'posting past each other'. I will take Luke 21 and seek to use that passage to clarify some issues.
Luke 21:5 And as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which you behold, the days will come, in which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
This is what happened in 70 AD, as Jesus foretold. What follows must be considered in light of whom Jesus was addressing in attendance at the Temple, and also for the longer view of His message to us 'non-Jews' nearly 2000 years later.
continued below
You really ought to read 1 Thess 4:13-18 before sticking your shoe in your mouth. THE DEAD IN CHRIST rise FIRST, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air ... and return WITH JESUS to the Father’s House (see John 14). The Times of the Gentiles ends with the snatching away of the Body of Believers, the Body of Christ.
Grace means unmerited favor... one cannot 'earn' grace as in a paycheck... However, the lawless are sure not lined up to receive unmerited favor = grace ... It is 'man' that is linear, our Heavenly Father does whatever He chooses to do... He just happened to send us an instruction manual to study, and pray that what we read is understood in the manner in which it was sent by Him... The devil knows the Scripture better than most, yet he twisted the Scripture when he attempted to 'tempt' Christ.
“Luke 21 is a companion of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 or the 7 trumps.”
I think you meant the 7 seals in Revelation 6-8.
Paul was giving the unlearned a refresher course on where the 'dead' are... It was NOT a new thing as Solomon penned in Ecclesiastes 12: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Again Paul also states in ICorinthians 15: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
I really do not intend to be a 'know it all', but the Times of the Gentiles coincides precisely during 'Jacob's trouble'... Perhaps you might be better served IF you understood what is meant by the 'times of the Gentiles'...
The 'trumps' are action, the seals are what is required to have in the mind to recognize the sounding of the 'trumps'... IF you note the 6th trump, seal and vial (666) are the announcing of, understand of who and the action of the 'anti-Christ'. He shows up first Revelation 12:12... And Christ said all but the elect would worship him. WHY? 'D E C E P T I O N' That is the first tribulation, that has NOT been since the foundation of this world, (age).
During the Tribulation it is the Jews who will be doing the evangelizing, not members of the Ekklesia from the Age of Grace. During the Age of Grace we have been told by Paul that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, for all believers are in The Body of Christ. The Age of Grace Ekklesia is removed so the believing Jews can do the work of evangelizing.
Scripture please? One must need know what exactly God was meaning when the word Gentiles is used.
During the Tribulation it is the Jews who will be doing the evangelizing, not members of the Ekklesia from the Age of Grace. During the Age of Grace we have been told by Paul that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, for all believers are in The Body of Christ. The Age of Grace Ekklesia is removed so the believing Jews can do the work of evangelizing.
In Christ there is 'no distinction', Cornelius was a 'gentile', but loved the Lord... and God showed Peter that no longer were the gentiles in Christ to be shunned.
Romans 11 :1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. The Ingrafting of the Gentiles 11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? All Israel Shall Be Saved 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Here is that same Paul who does NOT even hint of a 'rapture'... when instructing regarding Gentiles ...
Perhaps you could enlighten us...
Who wrote 1st and 2nd Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians 15? I’d say that is a bit more than a hint.
Times of the Gentiles are what gives Jacob his trouble.
“IF you note the 6th trump, seal and vial (666) are the announcing of, understand of who and the action of the ‘anti-Christ’. He shows up first Revelation 12:12... And Christ said all but the elect would worship him.”
It is an interesting idea to explore a connection to antichrist in the 6th seal, 6th trumpet, and 6th bowl, but he does not show up FIRST in Revelation 12. He shows up in Revelation 6:2 at the opening of the 1st seal. This is NOT the revelation of antichrist, but it does indicate his rise to power through a false peace. This probably aligns with the treaty to protect Israel being signed or renewed for 7 years.
The 6 signs of Christ’s coming revealed in the Olivet discourse are identical to the 6 seals in Revelation 6. They do not match the description of the trumpet and seal judgments.
However, there are some interludes that tie things together. And these include references to the antichrist forcing the world to take the mark, the two witnesses, the sign of the woman and dragon, the 7 thunders, etc.
There are some events that are not in chronological order. Here are a few examples:
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
Is the whole world repentant and praising God BEFORE the seal judgments even begin? No. See 9:21, 16:9, and 16:11.
Revelation 13:16
He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads...
Revelation 14:9
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand...”
Is the angel warning about something that already happened and for which it is too late? Of course not.
Revelation 11:7
When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
The two witnesses are killed by a specific beast that comes from the abyss. This happens in chapter 11. But this beast is not actually announced until chapter 17.
So, we have to exercise caution when trying to apply a strict timeline or sequence of events that can not be proven from these passages in Revelation directly or from other scriptures. The 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls are in a chronological sequence. But there are details in the interludes that extend and overlap into other parts of the overall timeline.
But again, the Olivet signs match the seal judgments. These tell us when the return of the Lord is imminent.
Revelation 12:12 happens precisely in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week. It aligns with the abomination of desolation which is when antichrist is revealed or unmasked. In relation to the 6 signs of the Olivet discourse, it is plain this is connected with the 5th sign:
Matthew 24:9, 10, 15, 21
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another...
Therefore when you see the “abomination of desolation,” spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)...
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
The severe persecution of believers prophesied here will happen BEFORE the abomination of desolation, but it will intensify and become worldwide after this event. But it will be cut short (for believers, i.e. the elect) by the return of Christ. His return will have the prelude of one last warning of the signs in the heavens. And these include the sun and moon being darkened. This marks the end of the Great Tribulation and the imminent arrival of the Day of the Lord.
Then Christ will return and take His elect from the earth, and His holy angels will begin administering the judgments of fire upon those who remain on the earth. These are the trumpet and bowl judgments. These are NOT part of the Olivet discourse.
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What makes the Revelation more understandable is realizing that the text / imagery is moving from a far perspective to a near and back again to an overview of History. The imagery of Israel giving birth to The Christ Who is caught up to Heaven before the dragon can devour Him is followed by a 'waters like a flood' imagery, the flood being the peoples of the Earth, not waters perhaps. But the imagery also is specific to Israel at points in the text, then specific to all of humanity, especially that which rejects Christ and refuses to repent even to the last.
Not only, like you say, is no strict timeline but the perspective switches from distant to far. But one thing is certain, The Church / Ekklesia is not mwentioned after chapter three and perhaps the start of chapter four, until 19! And the Bride / Ekklesia returns FROM HEAVEN with The Lord Christ at the end of the Tribulation, before the start of the millennium.
The Tribulation Saints are not the Ekklesia. When Rev 3 says He will keep the faithful from The Hour of Testing, that points directly to keeping them from the great lie and the strong delusion ... because they have been snatched away and taken back tot eh Father's House, as Jesus promised in John 14. THE ELECT during the Tribuilation are alive, human inhabitants who have been sheltered from antichrist and will be gathered for entry, alive, going into the millennium, where they will bear children etc.
The Ekklesia / Body of Christ / Bride of Christ is raptured before the Tribulation starts moving the restrainer out of the way so the man of sin can come on the scene and Jews can do the evangelizing during the Tribulation.
Because of the event witnessed by most, some will heed the evangelization and call out to God for spiritual salvation, even as they are being slaughtered for their belief and refusal to bow down toanti-Christ's administration. These show up in Heaven as a number so great no man of John's day could number them. These show up early in Heaven, then the perspective changes for John's instruction (Rev 7:9). Then who are the Rev 6:9 under the throne?
I have a feeling that Time, in Heaven, does not function in a linear fashion as we sense it now.
20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
There is nothing here about anyone going anyplace... The promise is ‘time’ of Daniel's days will be shortened for the elect’s sake... Since Christ declared that He had foretold us all things, that would include who the literal anti-Christ is.
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Not one thing about fleeing from the devil, but rather how to stand against him.
“Not one thing about fleeing from the devil, but rather how to stand against him.”
Excellent point.
James 4:7
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Revelation 12:10-11
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death...”
“There is nothing here [Mark 13:20-26] about anyone going anyplace.”
You left off verse 27:
Mark 13:27
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
There is an event that is part of Christ’s parousia (”coming”) that includes the gathering of the elect. There is another in which the angels gather the wicked to remove them:
Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
In one part we meet Him in the air. In another, He plants His feet on the Mount of Olives (where He also taught these things), returning fully to earth.
I’m pretty sure all premillennialists agree on these things. We just have some disagreements on the timing and the amount of time between these things.
Now, if you consider the events described in Mark 13, leading up to the gathering of the elect, where in the book of Revelation do we find an identical sequence of events?
“The Church / Ekklesia is not mwentioned after chapter three and perhaps the start of chapter four, until 19! And the Bride / Ekklesia returns FROM HEAVEN with The Lord Christ at the end of the Tribulation, before the start of the millennium.”
In the same chapters (4-19), Jesus is also not mentioned by name. But He is referenced as the Lamb. Oddly, we do not see the multitudes of the church in these chapters, even when we are transported to the throne-room of Heaven. That is, unless the multitudes of martyred souls in chapter 6, and the multitudes from all nations in chapter 7 are members of the Church. Why are there no multitudes of Church saints seen in chapter 5 even though there are multitudes of angels? Only the elders praise the Lamb for redeeming us by His blood. Where are the multitudes who should be saying the same thing?
The purpose of the rapture is for us to be with Christ. So, if the rapture has already happened before Christ takes the scroll and opens the first seal, then why are we (i.e. the Church) not seen to be with Him?
Why do we see this multitude in Heaven in chapter 7 joining in the praise to God and the Lamb, but no multitude of Church believers?
We don’t even see Jesus (or the Lamb) mentioned in chapters 8 and 9.
In chapter 10 we have Jesus and the Lamb mentioned in reference to those on the earth being His witnesses and being His martyrs. We know this is happening when Satan is cast down from Heaven in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week, when the abomination of desolation happens and the antichrist is revealed.
Then we do not see Him mentioned again until chapter 14 where the Lamb appears on Mt. Zion and apparently takes the 144,000 with Him to the throne-room of Heaven. And we see Him as the Son of Man reaping the harvest in the same chapter.
In chapter 15 we see “tribulation saints” in the throne-room of Heaven with the Lamb. He is not mentioned in chapter 16. In chapter 17, the Lamb is not depicted but is mentioned. In chapter 18, He is not mentioned.
Then we finally get to the Lambs bride in chapter 19. And the marriage apparently has not happened yet. (See verse 7.) She is called the Lamb’s wife in chapter 21.
“And the Bride / Ekklesia returns FROM HEAVEN with The Lord Christ at the end of the Tribulation, before the start of the millennium.”
It seems very clear to me that God intentionally left out a description of the rapture in the book of Revelation. The various positions of pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post-trib, do not have any explicit depiction of the living saints being snatched up to Heaven. Each position looks for implicit examples. I’m not sure why God chose to leave such an important detail out.
Here is what we can all agree on: Christ is coming back. Christians who have died up until that time will be raised up, and those members of Christ’s spiritual body (the Church, Christ’s bride) who are still alive at His coming will be caught up to meet Him in the air. We will be with Him from that point forward. This is the purpose of the rapture. We will escape God’s wrath.
What we do not agree on revolves heavily around if this escaping of God’s wrath entails being taken out before any, part, or all of the antichrist’s terror is unleashed.
Christians are currently going through severe persecution in parts of the world today. There is no promise that we will not experience this in America. We may also go through war, famine, disease, and natural disaster. Pre-trib proponents do not deny this, only that we will not go through these specific judgments during Daniel’s seventieth week.
It is important to recognize that this is the bottom-line difference between our views.
We can agree on the urgency for every person to repent and believe the Gospel message now. This is true regardless of our view on the timing of the rapture. We can also agree that we need to be willing to endure persecution and trials. Can also agree that God’s wrath will never touch us. We can agree that we will watch and/or wait for Christ’s return expectedly.
My reasons for falling into the pre-wrath camp revolve around the specific definition of the Day of the Lord and the specific signs that are said to come before it. Particularly, the sun and moon being darkened is specifically given as an indicator, in the Olivet discourse, that the Great Tribulation has just ended and that Christ is about to return. And this same sign is given by Joel as an indicator that the Day of the Lord is about to begin. And Christ’s return is always connected with the arrival of the Day of the Lord.
I have read many articles and books, and listened to many sermons. No one has presented the most basic answer to this simple fact.
“When Rev 3 says He will keep the faithful from The Hour of Testing, that points directly to keeping them from the great lie and the strong delusion ... because they have been snatched away”
I have pointed out that Revelation 3:10 and John 17:15 use the same Greek word for “keep.”
John 17:15
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Comparing these two verses easily demonstrates that “keeping” can mean to preserve through something without being removed from its presence. There is a completely different word used to indicate we are saved, spared, delivered, or kept from God’s wrath.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
God’s wrath is distinguished from tribulation and persecution:
Acts 14:22
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”
2 Timothy 3:12
Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
Will the Church be present when antichrist arrives? What about when he is revealed?
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.
The Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ, the Day of Wrath will not come until antichrist is first revealed. The order of events is clear to me: the antichrist is revealed (at the abomination of desolation), and the Day of the Lord comes after this. If Christ return is simultaneous with the arrival of the Day of the Lord, then the Church must be here during at least part of the antichrist’s operation on this earth.
And why does Joel give the sign of the sun and moon being turned dark BEFORE the Day of the Lord?
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
And why does Jesus give this same sign as coming AFTER the Great Tribulation and right before He arrives to gather His elect?
Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
And why does John place this same sign in the same exact sequence of events within the seal judgments and just before the people of earth cry out and seek to hide from Christ because the Day of Wrath has arrived?
Revelation 6:12-17
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Why do pre-trib proponents run away from these verses without any explanation of what they mean? It seems very straightforward to me. I’m willing to entertain alternative explanations, but every other one I’ve seen is muddled, confused, and requires mental backflips to make it fit into some other paradigm. We are not supposed to force scripture to fit into our paradigm. We are supposed to base our paradigm on what it tells us.
Trying to make the Olivet discourse to Israel only does not work so well. Christ said it was a message to all:
Mark 13:37
And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!
He describes those who are persecuted before and after the abomination of desolation to be hated for being His followers:
Matthew 24:9
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
Are we expected to believe that these are Jews that the world wants to kill because they are following Christ? If the abomination of desolation has not happened yet, why would the Jews have rejected the antichrist to follow Jesus? Jesus specifically taught that Israel would receive the one who came in his own name, i.e. the antichrist.
A very big problem for the pre-trib view is that none of the 7 trumpet or bowl judgements seem to fit within the sequence of events described in the Olivet discourse. Indeed the Olivet discourse clearly matches and is aligned with the 7 seal judgments. But Christ makes it very clear that He will return and gather His elect IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation.
If this appearance of Christ is not for the Church but is for the tribulation saints, where does that happen in the Revelation sequence of events? And how do the trumpet and bowl judgments, which appear to take many months, fit AFTER the seal judgments but before Christ returns to earth to set up His kingdom? There is a really big problem with the timeline of events based on the pre-trib paradigm.
With the pre-wrath view, there are not so many challenges. The order of events fits perfectly. The Church is “kept” from the hour of trial, the Great Tribulation, supernaturally until those who will be martyred are martyred, and those who remain and endure until Christ’s return do so. Then He comes and takes them to Heaven. And immediately there are judgments of fire that begin to be poured out on the earth as God’s wrath is executed. This also aligns perfectly with the account of the rapture in Second Thessalonians:
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Why do no pre-trib proponents want to answer whether this is the rapture before Daniel’s seventieth week, or the return of Christ to the earth at the end of Daniel’s seventieth week?
That should be an easy answer. But either way there are problems for the pre-trib view. If this is before, then how is it that angels will be coming at the rapture to pour fire on the earth? But if it is after, how is it that Christians will finally be getting their respite and rest at the very end of Daniel’s seventieth week. Again, the pre-trib view has some major timeline issues.
As I’ve said before, I appreciate your contributions to these discussions and in no way intend for them to be demeaning of you, your position on this issue, or the others who share your views. God has greatly used the ministry of many pre-trib preachers and teachers in my life. With the exception of Marv Rosenthal, who pioneered to current systematic view of pre-wrath, probably all of the those whose ministry I have set under were pre-trib. In fact, Marv Rosenthal was possibly the most persuasive of those who held the pre-trib view when I was a kid. When I first questioned it as a teenager I was suspicious that I must be very unskilled in the Bible to doubt what was being taught by literally every Bible teacher I respected. However, God chose to deliver me from this view and share my Biblical understanding with others in preparation for what appears to be getting very near.
We do not know if we will be part of that last generation of New Testament believers who are alive when Christ returns. But that generation needs to know if they will face antichrist and what to expect. I believe that we must beware of him, refuse the mark of the beast and plan to survive without needing it, proclaim the return of the Lord to judge the earth, and call people to repentance and faith. I believe we are to keep the word of His patience now, and pray to escape these things that are coming. I believe we must increase our fellowship with other believers and work together to help each other as the perilous times grow worse.
Hebrews 10:25
not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
The signs will tell us when the Day of Christ is approaching.
The elect spoken of are the elect who are alive during the Tribulation. The Tribulation is to put an end to sin in Israel. The elect are Jews who will go alive into the millennium reighn of Christ.
Their 'brothers', from the time of Abraham to the present have been collecting 'under the throne'. The beseeched God as to how long until their deaths are avenged. These are they who will be collected from the farthest part of heaven, along with the living who have been sheltered from satan's assault during the Tribulation. These are of the faith in Messiah coming, even as some missed His first arrival which ended with His ascension.
You posted, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the 'falling away' comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.Up until the Rheims Bible, your phrase 'falling away' was translated 'THE departure' in all previous Bible translations. Even Jerome used a Latin term for a 'departure'.
It was not until the rumblings of revolt against the Catholic Church that the strong noun was made to support a different perspective, which the King James Bible then turned into falling away instead of revolt as translated in the Rheims Bible.
The Greek has a definite article before apostasia, making it a noun of prominence. That verse you posted may in fact be a strong statement that the Rapture must come BEFORE the white horse rider with the bow and no arrows can come on the scene, due to the 'restrainer' being taken out of the way. The Restrainer is taken to mean the Body of Christ indwelt by believers, who are the Bride of Christ.
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