Posted on 12/15/2018 7:46:59 PM PST by Faith Presses On
1 After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias.
2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
3 And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.
4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
5 When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.
7 Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.
8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him,
9 There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?
10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,
17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.
18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.
21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
22 The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)
24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
Glory and praise to God ! What a beautiful day and service with the man Gary you sent into my path . He very much enjoyed the service at church this Saturday evening and you blessed him with work and hope . I am more and more humbled at your splendor and love for us . Thank you Jesus and our Father along with the helper for your love and guidance . Without those two components life would be just gnashing of teeth . Glory to you God and I pray for your protection and blessings . As always Thank you Faith for the word !
Where is the Body and Blood of Jesus that we are commanded to eat and drink for eternal life with God?
Amen. Thanks for posting that great Chapter.
Meanwhile,
The Hebrew word play on "flesh" and "meat" is good news, glad tidings, the Gospel. The word basar, which is also flesh. In modern Hebrew it's the word for meat.
The physical, animal soul is the one that causes the blood to circulate, animating the body. It's the nefesh, or specifically the nefesh habehamit. It's the life blood. Here's a short write-up that connects with what Jesus was talking about regarding preferred "blood types" so to speak: Transforming the animal soul.
Perhaps a modern comparison can be made to an overweight person knows that he needs to lose 40 lbs. Through willpower he stops eating junk and starts exercising, and everything's going great, the weight drops off. But then the holidays roll around. Everyone is bringing cookies and candy into the office, and he succumbs to the sweets he had so mindfully avoided. Christmas arrives, and down the hatch go several slices of pie and a dozen bread rolls, plus the turkey and potatoes. By early January, all the weight is back on, plus another 10 pounds, like an extra seven devils having joined the first.
The failure is that he didn't rise above the cravings. He didn't internalize the negatives such that he wouldn't want to inhale sweets anymore, or wouldn't desire to stuff himself needlessly. Therefore, it was only a matter of time, because there was no renewing of the mind, no regeneration to a higher plane of existence that flies above all that. The diet industry and religious marketplaces bank on the never-ending cycle of failure, feast, and famine.
The Messiah shows the way up and out, but the message has been turned backwards, as if Jesus saves by "lovingly" putting lipstick on a pig every morning.
The saying is worn but true: give a man a fish and he eats for a day, but teach him how to fish and he eats for a lifetime.
It connects to the manna story.
I believe it is a reference to faith as opposed to the actual consumption . IE; the bread of life which Jesus gave to the world by appearing in human form and suffering to save us from ourselves and to rekindle our relationship with God our father.
Multiplication of the Loaves.* 1a After this, Jesus went across the Sea of Galilee [of Tiberias].* 2A large crowd followed him, because they saw the signs he was performing on the sick. 3Jesus went up on the mountain, and there he sat down with his disciples. 4The Jewish feast of Passover was near.b 5* When Jesus raised his eyes and saw that a large crowd was coming to him, he said to Philip,c “Where can we buy enough food for them to eat?” 6* He said this to test him, because he himself knew what he was going to do. 7Philip answered him, “Two hundred days’ wages* worth of food would not be enough for each of them to have a little [bit].”d 8One of his disciples, Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, said to him, 9“There is a boy here who has five barley loaves* and two fish; but what good are these for so many?”e 10Jesus said, “Have the people recline.” Now there was a great deal of grass* in that place. So the men reclined, about five thousand in number.f 11Then Jesus took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed them to those who were reclining, and also as much of the fish as they wanted.g 12When they had had their fill, he said to his disciples, “Gather the fragments left over, so that nothing will be wasted.” 13So they collected them, and filled twelve wicker baskets* with fragments from the five barley loaves that had been more than they could eat. 14When the people saw the sign he had done, they said, “This is truly the Prophet,* the one who is to come into the world.”h 15Since Jesus knew that they were going to come and carry him off to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain alone.i
Walking on the Water.* 16j When it was evening, his disciples went down to the sea, 17embarked in a boat, and went across the sea to Capernaum. It had already grown dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them. 18The sea was stirred up because a strong wind was blowing. 19When they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea* and coming near the boat, and they began to be afraid.k 20But he said to them, “It is I.* Do not be afraid.” 21They wanted to take him into the boat, but the boat immediately arrived at the shore to which they were heading.
The Bread of Life Discourse. 22* The next day, the crowd that remained across the sea saw that there had been only one boat there, and that Jesus had not gone along with his disciples in the boat, but only his disciples had left. 23* Other boats came from Tiberias near the place where they had eaten the bread when the Lord gave thanks. 24When the crowd saw that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they themselves got into boats and came to Capernaum looking for Jesus. 25And when they found him across the sea they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?” 26Jesus answered them and said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled. 27Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life,* which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.”l 28So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.” 30So they said to him, “What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do?m 31* Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written:n
‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
32So Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.o 33For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34p So they said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35* Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.q 36But I told you that although you have seen [me], you do not believe.r 37Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, 38because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.s 39And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it [on] the last day.t 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him [on] the last day.”u
41The Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,” 42and they said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”v 43Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop murmuring* among yourselves.w 44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. 45It is written in the prophets:
‘They shall all be taught by God.’
Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.x 46Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father.y 47Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;z 50this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”a
52The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?” 53Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” 59These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
The Words of Eternal Life.* 60Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” 61Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? 62What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?* 63It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh* is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.c 65And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
66As a result of this, many [of] his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. 67Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” 68Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”d 70Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?” 71He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.e
* [6:1–15] This story of the multiplication of the loaves is the fourth sign (cf. note on Jn 5:1–47). It is the only miracle story found in all four gospels (occurring twice in Mark and Matthew). See notes on Mt 14:13–21; 15:32–39. John differs on the roles of Philip and Andrew, the proximity of Passover (Jn 6:4), and the allusion to Elisha (see Jn 6:9). The story here symbolizes the food that is really available through Jesus. It connotes a new exodus and has eucharistic overtones.
* [6:1] [Of Tiberias]: the awkward apposition represents a later name of the Sea of Galilee. It was probably originally a marginal gloss.
* [6:5] Jesus takes the initiative (in the synoptics, the disciples do), possibly pictured as (cf. Jn 6:14) the new Moses (cf. Nm 11:13).
* [6:6] Probably the evangelist’s comment; in this gospel Jesus is never portrayed as ignorant of anything.
* [6:7] Days’ wages: literally, “denarii”; a Roman denarius is a day’s wage in Mt 20:2.
* [6:9] Barley loaves: the food of the poor. There seems an allusion to the story of Elisha multiplying the barley bread in 2 Kgs 4:42–44.
* [6:10] Grass: implies springtime, and therefore Passover. Five thousand: so Mk 6:39, 44 and parallels.
* [6:13] Baskets: the word describes the typically Palestinian wicker basket, as in Mk 6:43 and parallels.
* [6:14] The Prophet: probably the prophet like Moses (see note on Jn 1:21). The one who is to come into the world: probably Elijah; cf. Mal 3:1, 23.
* [6:16–21] The fifth sign is a nature miracle, portraying Jesus sharing Yahweh’s power. Cf. the parallel stories following the multiplication of the loaves in Mk 6:45–52 and Mt 14:22–33.
* [6:19] Walking on the sea: although the Greek (cf. Jn 6:16) could mean “on the seashore” or “by the sea” (cf. Jn 21:1), the parallels, especially Mt 14:25, make clear that Jesus walked upon the water. John may allude to Jb 9:8: God “treads upon the crests of the sea.”
* [6:20] It is I: literally, “I am.” See also notes on Jn 4:26 and Mk 6:50.
* [6:22–71] Discourse on the bread of life; replacement of the manna. Jn 6:22–34 serve as an introduction, Jn 6:35–59 constitute the discourse proper, Jn 6:60–71 portray the reaction of the disciples and Peter’s confession.
* [6:23] Possibly a later interpolation, to explain how the crowd got to Capernaum.
* [6:27] The food that endures for eternal life: cf. Jn 4:14, on water “springing up to eternal life.”
* [6:31] Bread from heaven: cf. Ex 16:4, 15, 32–34 and the notes there; Ps 78:24. The manna, thought to have been hidden by Jeremiah (2 Mc 2:5–8), was expected to reappear miraculously at Passover, in the last days.
* [6:35–59] Up to Jn 6:50 “bread of life” is a figure for God’s revelation in Jesus; in Jn 6:51–58, the eucharistic theme comes to the fore. There may thus be a break between Jn 6:50–51.
* [6:43] Murmuring: the word may reflect the Greek of Ex 16:2, 7–8.
* [6:54–58] Eats: the verb used in these verses is not the classical Greek verb used of human eating, but that of animal eating: “munch,” “gnaw.” This may be part of John’s emphasis on the reality of the flesh and blood of Jesus (cf. Jn 6:55), but the same verb eventually became the ordinary verb in Greek meaning “eat.”
* [6:60–71] These verses refer more to themes of Jn 6:35–50 than to those of Jn 6:51–58 and seem to be addressed to members of the Johannine community who found it difficult to accept the high christology reflected in the bread of life discourse.
* [6:62] This unfinished conditional sentence is obscure. Probably there is a reference to Jn 6:49–51. Jesus claims to be the bread that comes down from heaven (Jn 6:50); this claim provokes incredulity (Jn 6:60); and so Jesus is pictured as asking what his disciples will say when he goes up to heaven.
* [6:63] Spirit,flesh: probably not a reference to the eucharistic body of Jesus but to the supernatural and the natural, as in Jn 3:6. Spirit and life: all Jesus said about the bread of life is the revelation of the Spirit.
You’re welcome.
I believe it’s spiritually true that we eat Christ’s body and drink His blood to have eternal life, but what exactly that means we just can’t know because we don’t really have any understanding of God’s true nature. We know He’s light, but He’s light beyond the physical light He created in this world.
We know that His Son Jesus is His Word, and that this world was created through Jesus as God’s Word, but beyond us knowing those things we can’t really understand what all that means and how it’s so. We just know it’s so and that one day we’ll understand.
I didn’t search through what you posted and no differences jumped out at me, so I’m wondering, what differences do you take to be there?
What if it is not spiritual, but it is His actual Body and Blood. as Jesus said it is is my flesh and blood and “whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life”?
Why did so many followers leave when Jesus spoke about eating His Flesh?
Why did the early Christians accept this teaching and died for their beliefs?
Jesus is the the light and the Truth. Why did the Jewish leaders reject Jesus as God and had Him put to death and others reject the words (Truth) of Jesus about His Flesh and Blood and His Church?
John 1 “’In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
So why do we not believe the Word of Jesus? We may not understand all the divine mysteries, but we can accept His Word and believe it as the Truth. It was repeated several times in the Bible and was established by Jesus as a Sacrament at the Last Supper.
You might like to do a google search and read about “Eucharist miracles” and learn that there is scientific evidence that some consecrated hosts have turned red and upon examination determined that it is distressed heart muscle.
Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
See post 11. Meant to include the response to you.
“What if it is not spiritual, but it is His actual Body and Blood. as Jesus said it is is my flesh and blood and “whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life”?”
Thank you for your reply, but I wonder, why dismiss the spiritual? What exactly is it? In the Gospel of John, Jesus teaches that God is spirit, but we only have some sense of what that means. A dog understands that there are dogs and there are people, just as we do, but we humans have a much better understanding of the nature of both dogs and people. In this world, as the apostle Paul wrote, we only see and know in part. The nature of everything here, including ourselves, is probably at the very least somewhat different from the nature of things and people in Heaven. And God is present here, too, but He isn’t revealed to us here as He will be in Heaven.
Despite all that we don’t know right now, though, we can believe that Heaven is spiritual. Christ brings us from spiritual death and makes us spiritually alive, so what He must give us is God’s Spirit.
Now, I know most Protestants say that the Lord’s Supper is just a symbol, yet in how they act, most do act like it’s more than just a symbol. I don’t agree with that phrase to begin with because when we’re speaking of the words of God, there’s no such thing as “just a symbol.” God’s Word works, is living and active, and accomplishes what He pleases. But again, most Bible-believing Christians are reverent about the Lord’s Supper, and do think of it as the Lord’s actual body and blood, though in a way different from Catholics. To me the saying that the Lord’s Supper is only a symbol is a somewhat mistaken description, the importance of which is to draw a distinction from Catholic belief. And I do agree with doing that because, when I consider it in the light of Scripture and the Holy Spirit’s direction to me, Catholic belief on the Lord’s Supper appears out of line, and in that way, has created a religion out of Christianity, a religion which is full of rituals.
“Why did so many followers leave when Jesus spoke about eating His Flesh?”
They weren’t truly with Him in their hearts, which Jesus knew, and at the proper time, He put their supposed faith to the test and exposed that they didn’t have faith in Him. Despite all of the ways that He had revealed Himself to be the Messiah, they doubted Him rather than keeping their trust in Him, and then walked away from Him. In His replies to the people who had been among the multitude who were fed the loaves and fishes, they perceived that His responses were evil because there were driven by the unbelief in their hearts.
I believe, too, that it’s important to recognize that what Jesus said here about eating His flesh and drinking His blood was said to unbelievers, and only after they doubted Him over and over during this dialogue. From the beginning of it, Jesus told them their hearts weren’t right and attempted what He could to correct them, but when they rebuffed those attempts, He gave them over to their rebellion by saying something that He knew they wouldn’t accept. He knew they’d twist it and not accept it, and so He would be sending those who were determined to stay in unbelief away from Him, including some who had been disciples. God gives people opportunities to turn to Him, but in His sovereignty, He decides when those opportunities come to an end.
“Jesus is the the light and the Truth. Why did the Jewish leaders reject Jesus as God and had Him put to death and others reject the words (Truth) of Jesus about His Flesh and Blood and His Church?
John 1 “’In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
And all of God’s Word gives us the answer to that. The Jewish leaders rejected Jesus out of unbelief. Although they’d risen to the top of Judaism, it was to gain the world, not to humbly and truly serve God. Paul wrote that all men were to be reconciled to God — to come to Him on His terms, through His Son. And we know that through the workings of this world, God is separating the sheep from the goats, and the wheat from the tares. In that, position and appearance don’t necessarily mean anything. What means everything is the true condition of people’s hearts (and not their physical hearts, but their spiritual hearts, though the spiritual heart may not be entirely separate from the physical one).
Thank you for your response. I hope that we are both seeking God’s Truth.
While you ask why dismiss the spiritual? This did not fully address the statement that Jesus made that His Body and Blood is His flesh and blood and that we should eat His flesh and drink His Blood for eternal life. Jesus repeated his statement and emphasized it by Amen! Amen! (So be it).
Jesus established this as a Sacrament at the Last Supper and shared it with others after He had risen from death. (on the road to Emmaus and with the Apostles in Acts)
Yes God is spirit, but Jesus is divine and human. Jesus is the Truth and His words are the Truth. You indicate that the Jews that listened to Jesus at Capernaum were not believers and stopped following Jesus. They were followers of Jesus, but did not accept or believe His words. Is it any different that some Christians stopped believing in the words of Jesus that fellow Christians have believed for over 1500 years (and many still do believe that the concentrated host contains the actual Body and Blood of Jesus)?
So if we do not believe the words of Jesus, then whose words do we believe in?
If Jesus said he would always be with us and His Church, then why should we not believe Him?
Your comment; “when I consider it in the light of Scripture and the Holy Spirit’s direction to me, Catholic belief on the Lord’s Supper appears out of line, and in that way, has created a religion out of Christianity, a religion which is full of rituals.”
Please explain, as the Catholic Sacraments (”rituals”) are based on the teachings of Jesus and the Bible. According to the Bible, The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and delegated to Peter and the Apostles and their successors to spread the Good News to the world. Many have joined the Catholic Church and many have left.
God’s Peace be with you.
“Thank you for your response. I hope that we are both seeking God’s Truth.”
Amen to that. I hope so, too.
“While you ask why dismiss the spiritual? This did not fully address the statement that Jesus made that His Body and Blood is His flesh and blood and that we should eat His flesh and drink His Blood for eternal life. Jesus repeated his statement and emphasized it by Amen! Amen! (So be it).”
What I was trying to get at is that we don’t really know or understand the true nature of things. From the Bible, we know that God has arms and ears and eyes. Scripture mentions them. Yet what are those like? What are they made of? And is there time in Heaven? Would you agree that the nature of Heaven is different than the nature of this world? And, too, we were made in God’s image, not the other way around. Jesus took on our physical nature, but still was and is God.
All in all, from all that is said about it in the Bible, I have to think that when Jesus says we are to drink His blood and eat His flesh, He means of His nature as God. God is THE source and sustainer of life. It is “Christ in us” (something else we can’t explain or really understand in this world) which gives us spiritual and eternal life. And part of Jesus’ nature, too, is His nature as God’s Word. That is truly emphasized in John 6. He even explains that to those who reject what He says about eating His flesh and drinking His blood. As I’m sure you know, He explains in 6:63, “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” And Peter says in 6:68-69, “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.”
“Jesus established this as a Sacrament at the Last Supper and shared it with others after He had risen from death. (on the road to Emmaus and with the Apostles in Acts)”
But again, going by God’s Word, I believe that the Roman Catholic Church at some point went outside of what’s in Scripture and turned the Lord’s Supper into a religious ritual.
“Yes God is spirit, but Jesus is divine and human.”
Catholic ideas on the Lord’s Supper so emphasize the human that it is like saying Christians simply eat human flesh and drink human blood. That does sound like cannibalism.
“Jesus is the Truth and His words are the Truth. You indicate that the Jews that listened to Jesus at Capernaum were not believers and stopped following Jesus. They were followers of Jesus, but did not accept or believe His words.”
Some were His disciples, but others were apparently of the crowds who came to Him for His miracles and then there were also those who were in the synagogue in Capernaum as he taught (6:59).
(cont’d)
“Is it any different that some Christians stopped believing in the words of Jesus that fellow Christians have believed for over 1500 years (and many still do believe that the concentrated host contains the actual Body and Blood of Jesus)?”
As I said, Bible-believing Protestant Christians don’t take the bread and wine to be mere bread and wine but to be the Lord’s Body and Blood. That reverence far surpasses what regard someone would give a symbol, such as a national flag. There are warnings in church about eating the Lord’s Supper unworthily, as the Apostle Paul wrote. And certainly when we receive His Body and Blood, it is time for remembering Him and proclaiming His sacrificial death, in which out of perfect love He atoned for the sins of mankind, and the Father’s sacrifice of His only begotten Son for our sakes. And the Body of Christ comes together to be united in receiving His Body and Blood and remembering Him. So reflecting on the Gospel, including the price paid by the Lord on the cross, and God’s love for us, is where our thoughts go during the Lord’s Supper.
I also don’t believe that all Christians since the time of the apostles believed as the Catholic Church came to teach. God’s Word doesn’t demonstrate that. There are many differences between how the Lord’s Supper is described and treated in Scripture and Catholic tradition today, and in all four Gospels, Jesus’ emphasize was on His word, His teaching, and the truth He would reveal, most importantly that He was and is the Messiah who would die for the sins of the world.
“So if we do not believe the words of Jesus, then whose words do we believe in?”
We do believe His words, but altogether we have to believe that the Catholic interpretation of all of His words isn’t the most faithful to God’s Word.
“If Jesus said he would always be with us and His Church, then why should we not believe Him?”
We do believe that also, but don’t believe that He meant the Roman Catholic Church when He spoke of His Church.
“Your comment; “when I consider it in the light of Scripture and the Holy Spirit’s direction to me, Catholic belief on the Lord’s Supper appears out of line, and in that way, has created a religion out of Christianity, a religion which is full of rituals”...Please explain, as the Catholic Sacraments (”rituals”) are based on the teachings of Jesus and the Bible. According to the Bible, The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and delegated to Peter and the Apostles and their successors to spread the Good News to the world. Many have joined the Catholic Church and many have left.”
The Apostle Paul wrote in Ephesians 6 that “we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” The war between God and Satan was and is in the spiritual realm, and that is where the Church is, too. Both the Catholic Sacraments and the Church as defined in Catholicism on the other hand are very earthly by comparison.
“God’s Peace be with you.”
God’s Peace be with you, too.
Would you agree that the nature of Heaven is different than the nature of this world?
Yes. There are no sinners in Heaven, and we will see God and understand some of the divine mysteries. Jesus and the Apostles preached on earth what we needed to follow Him and for salvation. We should believe what Jesus told us, and not follow what another man who established a separate church after leaving the Catholic church founded by Jesus.
Back to your comment on spiritual, Jesus is both divine and human and He is the truth and we can easily understand His words and the clear meaning of eating His flesh and blood as true food needed for our salvation. Some people reject the true meaning of His words. Do you believe that Jesus is telling us to be cannibals, or is this just another interpretation by man (or Satan) that is trying to question the teachings of Jesus and divide Christians in their beliefs in God?
when I consider it in the light of Scripture and the Holy Spirit’s direction to me, Catholic belief on the Lord’s Supper appears out of line, and in that way, has created a religion out of Christianity, a religion which is full of rituals.
Please be specific. All of the Sacraments were established by Christ and are documented in the Bible and Jesus told us to do them in His memory (Last Supper). Christ was baptized by John the Baptist (not that he needed to cleanse sins, but to serve us and let us know that we needed Baptism), Confirmation (Pentecost), Marriage, Eucharist (Last Supper and with the Apostles in Acts), Confession (Bind and loose), Anointing of the sick and dying.
In regard to verse[6:63] Spirit,flesh: probably not a reference to the Eucharistic body of Jesus but to the supernatural and the natural, as in Jn 3:6. Spirit and life: all Jesus said about the bread of life is the revelation of the Spirit. This does not contradict Jesus command to eat His flesh and drink His blood for salvation.
How do you explain that several consecrated hosts that turned red were examined and scientifically determined to be heart muscle and blood?
But again, going by God’s Word, I believe that the Roman Catholic Church at some point went outside of what’s in Scripture and turned the Lord’s Supper into a religious ritual.
Please explain. Some protestant churches have continued to use the Catholic Church liturgy but not all the teachings of Jesus.
The Catholic Church founded by Christ and delegated to the Apostles and their successors has continued with the promise that Jesus and the Holy Spirit will always be with us and guide us. Yes, there are serious problems in the Church and too many sinners even in the leadership. Over the centuries there are many that have left the Catholic Church and disagreed with the teachings of Jesus. https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-great-heresies
Yes, Jesus spent time with sinners and wants to search for the one lost sheep to return it to the flock.
Thank you for the discussion. Not that I have all of the information of the Catholic faith, but there are many resources. I do believe that the Sacrament of the Eucharist is the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ as he promised to always be with us.
May God Bless you and your family.
“Yes. There are no sinners in Heaven, and we will see God and understand some of the divine mysteries. Jesus and the Apostles preached on earth what we needed to follow Him and for salvation. We should believe what Jesus told us, and not follow what another man who established a separate church after leaving the Catholic church founded by Jesus.”
Well, not just that about there being no sinners — or, perhaps we should say, no unforgiven sinners. “Sinner” is used in different ways in the Bible. But not just that there will be no sinners, but certainly the very nature of everything, including ourselves, will be at least somewhat different. For instance, there will be the Tree of Life.
On the rest of what you wrote there, I don’t believe things truly are as you describe them.
“Back to your comment on spiritual, Jesus is both divine and human and He is the truth and we can easily understand His words and the clear meaning of eating His flesh and blood as true food needed for our salvation. Some people reject the true meaning of His words. Do you believe that Jesus is telling us to be cannibals, or is this just another interpretation by man (or Satan) that is trying to question the teachings of Jesus and divide Christians in their beliefs in God?”
Again, I believe the Catholic interpretation really ignores the Bible’s messages and that is why Catholics make the argument that you do here that what Jesus meant is plain and simple — they’re those words, devoid of context. In another chapter, Jesus told His disciples to beware the leaven of the Pharisees. Without context, the plain and simple meaning is just that, and His disciples wondered if He meant bread. But He told them that He actually meant the doctrine of the Pharisees. I see in the Catholic interpretation, and it’s in the viewpoints that you put forward here, that Scripture has to be forced to defend Catholic doctrine. If I read you correctly, you essentially dismiss what Jesus said about His words being spirit and life as somehow not related to these questions raised in Chapter 6, including what He meant by eating His flesh and drinking His blood, when it clearly is.
And I don’t at all say lightly that the Catholic interpretation of what Jesus said does suggest cannibalism. The message of the Catholic view is that this is cannibalism made possible by a miracle. That’s it in a nutshell. The Catholic view emphasizes that this is Jesus’ human body that’s being eaten. The extraordinary thing, in the Catholic view, is that by the priest’s words, bread was turned into that body.
“Please be specific. All of the Sacraments were established by Christ and are documented in the Bible and Jesus told us to do them in His memory (Last Supper). Christ was baptized by John the Baptist (not that he needed to cleanse sins, but to serve us and let us know that we needed Baptism), Confirmation (Pentecost), Marriage, Eucharist (Last Supper and with the Apostles in Acts), Confession (Bind and loose), Anointing of the sick and dying.”
What God reveals to us in Scripture, through both Testaments, is the way to have relationship with Him, and not to establish a religion. I won’t get into your whole list here, but the supposed connection between Catholic confirmation and Pentecost really seems to be a stretch, like the Catholic Church is really reaching. Religion is like mindless machinery that runs by itself, though it does need to be maintained by people. Keeping the machinery going becomes most important. That was what was going on in the Temple system when Jesus walked the earth. It was more important to the religious leaders then to preserve their places, the Temple system, and the Jewish nation, threatened as they saw them all by Jesus’ presence, than it was to recognize the Messiah who had come to His own people. Relationship with God is like Jesus described the Spirit, in that the wind blows and one doesn’t know where it will exactly next. Through His Word, though, we can see where the Spirit is moving and follow the Lord.
“In regard to verse[6:63] Spirit,flesh: probably not a reference to the Eucharistic body of Jesus but to the supernatural and the natural, as in Jn 3:6. Spirit and life: all Jesus said about the bread of life is the revelation of the Spirit. This does not contradict Jesus command to eat His flesh and drink His blood for salvation.”
In all the Gospels, Jesus emphasized belief in Himself and knowing the Father. He didn’t go around giving people bread and wine as He did at the Last Supper, nor did He teach on it. And really, if the Catholic view is true, then an angel or the Holy Spirit could have revealed to a man, perhaps John the Baptist, about giving believers bread and wine as the Lord’s flesh and blood, and that practice in itself would be enough to give people eternal life. In that case, Jesus didn’t need to come here to this world nor die by crucifixion and be resurrected.
And when I think of it, what is eating versus words and meditation on something or someone? Have you read the Bible, and, if so, do you appreciate all that it reveals to us — that is, that God reveals to us about Himself. I was just thinking the other day about Malachi 3:16, which describes how those who feared the Lord spoke to each other, and a book of remembrance was made for them. That is just one passage. The spiritual treasure revealed in all of God’s Word is of infinite value and is the most amazing food for the soul. What are some of your favorite passages? There is something also so divinely wonderful and special about the Lord’s Supper, too. Everything in God’s Word is contained in it. But it is most divinely wonderful and special when we know God through His Word.
“How do you explain that several consecrated hosts that turned red were examined and scientifically determined to be heart muscle and blood?”
I started to read an article on one case in which the Catholic Church says that happened. I haven’t finished reading about it, but I will see what the evidence is actually said to be. For one thing, the evidence would have to be clear that it’s not a hoax. Given everything about the Roman Catholic Church that I’m aware of, in particular its downplaying of God’s Word over a very long period of time, it would take a lot for me to be assured that there wasn’t a hoax going on.
“Please explain. Some protestant churches have continued to use the Catholic Church liturgy but not all the teachings of Jesus.”
The Anglican and Lutheran churches don’t impress me as really Bible-believing. I was raised Lutheran.
“The Catholic Church founded by Christ and delegated to the Apostles and their successors has continued with the promise that Jesus and the Holy Spirit will always be with us and guide us. Yes, there are serious problems in the Church and too many sinners even in the leadership. Over the centuries there are many that have left the Catholic Church and disagreed with the teachings of Jesus. https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-great-heresies";
I don’t believe things are that way. I do believe that there can be believers inside the Catholic Church, actual true Christians with genuine faith. Do you believe there are any outside of the Catholic Church? If you do, then you know that you believe that God has at least some of His elect outside of the Catholic Church. What would that say to you?
“Yes, Jesus spent time with sinners and wants to search for the one lost sheep to return it to the flock...Thank you for the discussion. Not that I have all of the information of the Catholic faith, but there are many resources. I do believe that the Sacrament of the Eucharist is the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ as he promised to always be with us.”
Well, here’s one more thing. Do you believe, as a Catholic priest said, that when a consecrated Host was stolen some years back, that it was like a kidnapping of a family member and the Catholic Church wanted to meet with the man who took it to explain why it was needed back? There were many angry comments about the man, too. The Catholic reaction strikes me as in opposition to the lessons in the New Testament. The Lord can’t be hurt. And He allowed the world to despise Him, spit on Him, and seemingly destroy Him. In His seeming weakness and defeat was His strength and victory. Yet how fragile the Lord seems when He needs defending that way that the Catholic Church puts forward that He needs defending. For instance, it reminds one of Allah and Mohamed, needing almost murderous defense by human beings. And if the consecrated Host is like a kidnapped family member, to what lengths should one go to free that family member? Would killing the “kidnappers” be acceptable in order to free the kidnapped, because that is exactly what is justified in a kidnapping. So that’s a problem.
“May God Bless you and your family.”
Thank you again for your thoughtful and patient responses. They’re appreciated. May God Bless you and your family also.
You assume a Catholic interpretation is in error, but the Catholic church follows the oral tradition of Jesus and the Apostles that was practiced by the members of the church (and passed down through the centuries)as the new covenant and Catholic Church that Jesus founded. Perhaps you remember that the Church was formally started at Pentecost as the Holy spirit came and enabled them to proclaim (Acts 2).
The early christians had no written New Testament until it was written and inspired by early members of the Catholic Church. Most heard the Gospel and Good News through oral preaching as Jesus instructed His Apostles and their successors (until the invention of the printing press).
Jesus said his Church would be “the light of the world.” He then noted that “a city set on a hill cannot be hid” (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, “I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.
Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)
https://www.catholic.com/tract/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth
Your comment: “Again, I believe the Catholic interpretation really ignores the Bible’s messages and that is why Catholics make the argument that you do here that what Jesus meant is plain and simple — they’re those words, devoid of context.” “and it’s in the viewpoints that you put forward here, that Scripture has to be forced to defend Catholic doctrine. If I read you correctly, you essentially dismiss what Jesus said about His words being spirit and life as somehow not related to these questions raised in Chapter 6, including what He meant by eating His flesh and drinking His blood, when it clearly is.”
It is just the opposite, the Bible actually supports the Catholic doctrine. The Bible was written by early Catholics and the context and understanding has been passed down through the centuries. Others have interpreted it incorrectly according to their personal opinions. You state that Catholics ignore the verse about spirit, but most non Catholics ignore the very words of Jesus to eat His Body and Blood as true food and drink. The verse about spirit does not contradict the words of Jesus. It indicates that one requires faith to believe that the Eucharist is the actually Body and Blood of Jesus. It is God that gives life and our flesh will die. The Body and Blood of Jesus is very important to our salvation. Jesus sacrificed His Body and Blood for us (our salvation) and said that He will always be with us (in the Eucharist).
If it wasn’t important, why would Jesus change the bread and wine into His Body and Blood at the Last Supper and after His resurrection?
Jesus never said that eating His Body and Blood was all that was required for salvation. Even St Paul indicated that we needed to receive the Eucharist in a worthy manner.
https://www.catholic.com/tract/christ-in-the-eucharist
Where does it say that the Bible is the only source of Truth or the teachings of Jesus?
Should we follow the Catholic Church that Jesus established or off shoots that men created (Luther, etc)? There are programs (RCIA) at local parishes that explain the Catholic faith and teachings.
How is the Sacrament of Confirmation a stretch? Jesus told the Apostles that he would send the Holy Spirit to give them the knowledge and ability to preach in tongues (various languages). All Catholics can confirm their faith in God and receive the graces and inspiration from the Holy Spirit.
The mission of the Catholic Church is to lead and help us gain eternal life with God. It is a process that we grow in wisdom and understanding of God and turn away from sin. Yes the Catholic Church has saints and sinners. Jesus spent time with sinners and the poor as they needed Him. We need to follow Jesus with the help of good men and not follow the ways of sinners (the Pharisees or preachers).
Yes, I believe that there are believers in God outside the Catholic Church, but it may be harder for them and they may have some false beliefs and not the full Truth of Jesus. I also feel that some Catholics may not reach the goal of Heaven.
I am not aware of the situation that you briefly describe about the kidnapping of a consecrated host. While specific individuals do not always do the right thing and do sin, and it may reflect on the Catholic church. Sin and evil are not condoned by the Church. I do consider stealing a host a grave sin. I do feel that Jesus is a just judge and a merciful one.
I feel that there are many misunderstandings of the Catholic Church. There are human beings in the Church, some good and some bad. I do feel that the teachings of Jesus and the Bible are the true position of the Catholic Church. We need to continue to seek the Truth of Jesus and follow Him.
I also appreciate your responses and sincere discussion of different viewpoints that leads us both to a better understanding of the Truth.
May God continue to Bless you and your family.
“You assume a Catholic interpretation is in error,”
I was raised Lutheran in a very Catholic area. The Lutheran Church doesn’t emphasize knowing the Bible either, though it’s read every week in it service. Once I confessed for myself as an adult, without any influence of parents, that I believed Jesus was and is God’s Son and the Savior of the world, I began considering what Christian denomination I should join. At two different times, I seriously considered the Catholic Church. And even now, I listen to every claim made by it and reconsider claims I’m familiar with as they come up. So I don’t without a lot of consideration that I do believe that Catholic belief isn’t closest to the truth.
“...but the Catholic church follows the oral tradition of Jesus and the Apostles that was practiced by the members of the church (and passed down through the centuries)as the new covenant and Catholic Church that Jesus founded. Perhaps you remember that the Church was formally started at Pentecost as the Holy spirit came and enabled them to proclaim (Acts 2).”
There are common elements between the faith Jesus left His followers with and the Catholic Church, but there’s also much that is different. Over time the Catholic Church turned more and more of that faith into religion. In this article, there’s a picture illustrating some of that, that the Catholic faith moved more and more into religion. The Lord exposed religion and freed us from it. It isn’t true service to Him, and once spiritually freed from it through Christ, a person doesn’t want to return to it.
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-evangelizing-isnt-about-big-talk-its-about-joy-96598
“The early christians had no written New Testament until it was written and inspired by early members of the Catholic Church. Most heard the Gospel and Good News through oral preaching as Jesus instructed His Apostles and their successors (until the invention of the printing press).”
They had the Old Testament of the Bible, many testimonies about Jesus, the instruction and example of Jesus’ apostles, and probably written records and letters of the apostles that weren’t themselves preserved. The Jews had already passed down Scripture, and people of that time learned differently as well. In any case, we can believe that in one way or another, the early Christians received what is in the New Testament.
“Jesus said his Church would be “the light of the world.” He then noted that “a city set on a hill cannot be hid” (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches.”
I really find that reasoning to be stretch. The Church is people, those who believe on Jesus Christ and the Father who sent Him. A sincere believer or group of believers will be visible and the world will know recognize that person or persons as not its own. And that Christian or group of Christians will be a light to unbelievers, if they are willing to accept the light.
“Jesus promised, “I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.”
Yes, and I believe that about the Church, those whom the Lord knows are His own. ““Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” 2 Timothy 2:19
“Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)”
I believe that at first glance, at least, that’s potentially one of the stronger Catholic arguments. Yet, again, the Catholic Church and its doctrine have greatly changed from what’s described in the New Testament.
“Your comment: “Again, I believe the Catholic interpretation really ignores the Bible’s messages and that is why Catholics make the argument that you do here that what Jesus meant is plain and simple — they’re those words, devoid of context.” “and it’s in the viewpoints that you put forward here, that Scripture has to be forced to defend Catholic doctrine. If I read you correctly, you essentially dismiss what Jesus said about His words being spirit and life as somehow not related to these questions raised in Chapter 6, including what He meant by eating His flesh and drinking His blood, when it clearly is.”....It is just the opposite, the Bible actually supports the Catholic doctrine. The Bible was written by early Catholics and the context and understanding has been passed down through the centuries. Others have interpreted it incorrectly according to their personal opinions. You state that Catholics ignore the verse about spirit, but most non Catholics ignore the very words of Jesus to eat His Body and Blood as true food and drink. The verse about spirit does not contradict the words of Jesus. It indicates that one requires faith to believe that the Eucharist is the actually Body and Blood of Jesus. It is God that gives life and our flesh will die. The Body and Blood of Jesus is very important to our salvation. Jesus sacrificed His Body and Blood for us (our salvation) and said that He will always be with us (in the Eucharist).”
No, I do not see the Bible being interpreted incorrectly by Christians who aren’t Catholic. There are recurring themes and messages in God’s Word, and the argument that not everything is in the Bible can never alter what they are. A very similar argument is made by unbelievers who say that Jesus never said a word about homosexuality or “committed homosexual relationships.” Now Catholics say there is tradition in addition to the Bible, yet often what is claimed to be tradition violates and denies what’s in God’s Word.
“If it wasn’t important, why would Jesus change the bread and wine into His Body and Blood at the Last Supper and after His resurrection?”
Are you saying to believe that Bible-believing Christians don’t believe the Lord’s Supper to be important? If so, why do we have it?
“Jesus never said that eating His Body and Blood was all that was required for salvation. Even St Paul indicated that we needed to receive the Eucharist in a worthy manner.”
And what Paul meant means something different to Protestants and Catholics.
I also have looked a bit into what the Lord’s Supper is called in Scripture, and it’s that, the Lord’s Supper.
“Where does it say that the Bible is the only source of Truth or the teachings of Jesus?”
It is God’s Word, isn’t it? And He chose for His Word to be written down, and exactly what was written down. Having this Bible means we know in detail many things that God wants us all to know, and whatever else is taught or proclaimed by Christians, it must be faithful to what’s in the Bible. The importance of that can be seen in someone like Pope Francis, who, putting aside any consideration of uniquely Catholic doctrine, speaks against basic Christian doctrine that’s in God’s Word.
“Should we follow the Catholic Church that Jesus established or off shoots that men created (Luther, etc)?”
First, we should be faithful to the whole Bible, with every passage in its proper context.
“How is the Sacrament of Confirmation a stretch? Jesus told the Apostles that he would send the Holy Spirit to give them the knowledge and ability to preach in tongues (various languages). All Catholics can confirm their faith in God and receive the graces and inspiration from the Holy Spirit.”
It’s very different from Pentecost. I’ve never even connected the two.
“The mission of the Catholic Church is to lead and help us gain eternal life with God. It is a process that we grow in wisdom and understanding of God and turn away from sin. Yes the Catholic Church has saints and sinners. Jesus spent time with sinners and the poor as they needed Him. We need to follow Jesus with the help of good men and not follow the ways of sinners (the Pharisees or preachers).”
In Bible-believing churches, being born again in Christ, being a believer in Him, means having a personal relationship with Him. When we meditate on and pray using His Word, He is the vine and we are the branches. God’s thinking becomes ours, and we experience a closer and closer relationship with Him.
I don’t get your point about preachers.
“Yes, I believe that there are believers in God outside the Catholic Church, but it may be harder for them and they may have some false beliefs and not the full Truth of Jesus. I also feel that some Catholics may not reach the goal of Heaven.”
Then wouldn’t all true believers be God’s true Church?
“I am not aware of the situation that you briefly describe about the kidnapping of a consecrated host. While specific individuals do not always do the right thing and do sin, and it may reflect on the Catholic church. Sin and evil are not condoned by the Church. I do consider stealing a host a grave sin. I do feel that Jesus is a just judge and a merciful one.”
Here are a couple of links about it. What is your take on this, and what the professor did in response?
https://www.newstatesman.com/society/2008/09/cook-wafer-church-university
“I feel that there are many misunderstandings of the Catholic Church. There are human beings in the Church, some good and some bad. I do feel that the teachings of Jesus and the Bible are the true position of the Catholic Church. We need to continue to seek the Truth of Jesus and follow Him.”
Yes, but in Protestant churches the bad can either be thrown out if they don’t repent, or faithful Christians can simply leave when a certain church has been taken over by unbelievers masquerading as Christians. That’s what the history has been, although now the Christian faith in the West is going into apostasy more and more.
“I also appreciate your responses and sincere discussion of different viewpoints that leads us both to a better understanding of the Truth...May God continue to Bless you and your family.”
I appreciate your responses and sincere discussion, too, and how that leads us to a better understanding of the Truth. May God also continue to bless you and your family, ADSUM.
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