Posted on 08/22/2019 10:35:35 PM PDT by OddLane
Where do theist believe morality comes from? They might say the Bible, but that's not true. If people actually followed the morality in the Bible this would be a horrible place.
Okieshooter, I point you back to that very short video (the first few minutes of it is enough to convey its message) Oddlane linked to in post #39 above.
The world is a horrible mess. Do you somehow think people have improved since Biblical times?
But it took 1800 years for it to happen. And there is zero in the Bible condemning slavery. There is do under others in the Bible but I guess the Christians said except slaves for 1800 years.
One the the first writers in the colonies to condemn slavery was Thomas Paine and was a founding member of the first anti slavery organization. Paine was for sure not a Christian.
https://www.constitution.org/tp/afri.htm
A story about Paul seeing to it that a friend being released from slavery is hardly a condemnation of slavey. I mean something like the 10 Commandments “Thou shall not Kill” or Jesus condemning it in the sermon on the mount.
Also from Paul
“ “Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; ‘
Sounds like you’re pretty mad at God.
How can I be mad at a god that doesn’t exist. The “God” that I believe in bears no resemblance to the god depicted in the Bible. That is why I usually refer to it as a creator in an attempt to avoid confusion as when you say god most jump to the conclusion that you mean the god of the Bible.
Also I am not mad at Christians as they have an right to believe as they please as do all the other religions of the world, as long as they don’t interfere with the rights of others. I just believe that they have been misguided.
I usually refer to Deism as a philosophy rather than a religion as rather than an organized pathway to belief it is a personal path guided by my own observation, reason and logic without the dogma required by religions.
Anyway my reason for entering into this discussion was to show that religion was not required to live a moral life, what ever that is. The bases of mine and Deists that I know of our morals is the idea of the Golden Rule. It is said that it was Jesus’s idea, but you can come up with it pretty much with common sense, reason and logic.
"He who has the Gold makes the Rules."
Whatever the “truth” is, is going to pretty much sound ridiculous, and this notion that we are all just here randomly is as ridiculous as it gets.
lol.
I said nothing about mistakes, improving or religion.
I asked, “Are they sinless?”.
I assume you are referring to Christians being forgiven for their sins by accepting Christ as their savior and of course by your definition they are not sinless.
But your definition has no meaning to an atheist or a Deist like me since we don’t believe in the divinity of Christ. So all we can do is live our life a moral as we can. We are human and will make mistakes so all we can do is try to not repeat them. We can not fall back on the crutch of being forgiven.
I know that is hard to comprehend to you as a Christian.
For clarification Atheists do not believe in any god and Deists believe in a creator that created the universe but doesn’t actively interfere with it. So a completely different concept than the god of the Bible.
But maybe I am misinterpreting what you are getting at.
“forced to by the carrot and stick of religion? “
Forced? Since an athiest does not believe in God why should he care ?Who is forcing an athiest to do anything? Everyone on this planet lives only a very short life and it all will be sorted out in the end. Frankly I can’t think of any reason to believe in anything that does not offer promise and hope and to me the gift of eternal of life is irresistible.
“gift of eternal of life is irresistible”
That is exactly what I mean when I said carrot. Of course the stick is the threat of eternity in Hell is the stick.
Perhaps I shouldn’t have used the word forced since you entered into the belief willingly.
Most atheists don’t care but a percentage of them are militant as are some Christians that want to force their beliefs on everyone. I have experienced it myself as a Deist from an old high school classmate that wouldn’t take no for an answer and I had to break off communication with him.
As far as a reason to believe I only want to believe in something that I see as truth. Anything else is only wishful thinking. But I am sure you see your belief as truth.
Keep in mine that I am not trying to convert anybody to Deism but only trying to show that those that have other beliefs can lead moral lives.
At least in this country the 1st Amendment guarantees the right to believe what you want or in the case of atheists to not believe.
Well forced is the word you used and that is what I commented on. As far as the person who would not take no for an answer I failed to see much of a problem. We all have had similar experiences with those that have a different opinion and just deal it.
“At least in this country the 1st Amendment guarantees the right to believe what you want or in the case of atheists to not believe. “ And no one is forcing you to believe.
I had a discussion years ago with an atheist who also was a friend that said to me he was better than any Christian he knew and that I could not disagree with. Then he rattled off a scenario that would cover the 10 Commandments. I laughed inside but said nothing to him.
“At least in this country the 1st Amendment guarantees the right to believe what you want or in the case of atheists to not believe. “ And no one is forcing you to believe.
I never said anyone was even my classmate, normally I would ignore him but he kept calling and calling trying to save me.
As for my 1st Amendment comment it was only in reference how lucky we are to live in the U. S. instead of a radical Islamic country.
Looking back I guess I did imply that my classmate forced but probably poor choice of words. Better would be attempted to convert because he has no power to force me to do anything.
Now in some Islamic countries forced might be the word of choice.
THIS is what I was getting at.
There is no 'sin' if there is no 'law'.
When there is no law; how can there logically be anything known as 'moral'?
If we all do what is 'right' by our own standard; there is not peace but anarchy.
What is a 'mistake'? By whose standard is something a 'mistake'?
We can not fall back on the crutch of being forgiven.
Then we fall forward onto our own sword.
For clarification Atheists do not believe in any god and Deists believe in a creator that created the universe but doesn’t actively interfere with it.
Then what 'good' is there in being a Deist?
What is a Deist required to do?
What do Deists 'worship'?
Is the concept of 'worship' even a thing with Deists?
Would not a Deist be the same thing as a humanist?
Let's be clear here...and honest.
The fact that you "believe" God doesn't exist has no bearing on the "fact" of whether He exists or not.
Believers and disbelievers alike know, if only at an unconscious level, that their belief may be incorrect...and probably is to some degree.
For believers, we can rest assured that the God we believe in is much greater than we can imagine if He created the universe. Our brains and our experience, being pathetically limited, cannot prepare us for something infinite. We also fully realize, again on some level, that we might be wrong about what we believe altogether. After all, we've all been wrong so many times before. At the very least, Catholics and Methodists and Mormons and Baptists and Quakers can't all be right, can they?
So it comes down to this.
You don't "believe" God exists. In other words, like those who believe in God, you "choose" to live your life based on your "belief."
Bottom line: your belief has no bearing, influence on, or, probably even, a connection with The Truth.
Not to hearken back to Pascal's Wager, but you are angry with the possibility that you might be wrong about the existence of and the character of God.
Whether your like it or not, there is that possibility--that He exists just as Abraham, Moses, and Paul said He did.
That puts you in a rather peculiar position. Angry--it's apparent in your tone of voice--at something you don't believe exists.
As an aside, there are plenty of believers who are secretly angry at God because He isn't exactly who or how they want Him to be.
I would say the same thing to you that I say to myself and believers: "don't be so cocksure in your "beliefs" that you have closed your mind to all possibilities."
There is nothing more pathetic, vain, or desperate than a closed mind. A closed mind ceases to learn and grow and seek.
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