Posted on 09/11/2019 10:52:15 AM PDT by Gamecock
I don’t have two other sisters.
Indoctrination.
Much the same reason many people still think that socialism HAS to work despite the fact that it’s failed so many times before, because all their teachers said so.
The old Catholic Encyclopedia (on Justification) states,
Until quite recently, it was almost universally accepted that the epistle of St. James was written against the unwarranted conclusions drawn from the writings of St. Paul. Of late, however, Catholic exegetes have become more and more convinced that the Epistle in question, so remarkable for its insisting on the necessity of good works, neither aimed at correcting the false interpretations of St. Paul's doctrine, nor had any relation to the teaching of the Apostle of the Gentiles.
On the contrary, they believe that St. James had no other object than to emphasize the fact — already emphasized by St. Paul — that only such faith as is active in charity and good works (fides formata) possesses any power to justify man (cf. Galatians 5:6; 1 Corinthians 13:2), whilst faith devoid of charity and good works (fides informis) is a dead faith and in the eyes of God insufficient for justification (cf. James 2:17 sqq.). According to this apparently correct opinion, the Epistles of both Apostles treat of different subjects, neither with direct relation to the other. For St. James insists on the necessity of works of Christian charity, while St. Paul intends to show that neither the observance of the Jewish Law nor the merely natural good works of the pagans are of any value for obtaining the grace of justification (cf. Bartmann, "St. Paulus u. St. Jacobus und die Rechtertigung", Freiburg, 1897). — Catholic Encyclopedia>Justification; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm
As said, it is effectual, (1 Thessalonians 1:6) expressive, (Rm. 10:9-13) heart-purifying (Ats 15:9) Abrahamic faith that is counted for righteousness, versus works meriting justification, though they "justify" the believer as being one, (Heb. 6:9) and fit to be rewarded under grace. (Mt. 25:32-40)
Actually that is only done by some kooky non-c’s.
We Catholics know that Jesus set up His Church, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, at the Pentecost. it’s all to Jesus that His Church survives 2000 years.
Metmom: Adding works to intellectual assent is not going to save anyone.
Saving faith is one that produces works as the natural outflow of the work of the Holy Spirit in the person’s life.
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fortes fortuna juvat: Both of these statement are plausible in my view EXCEPT that the latter one appears to overlook the role of the will which must voluntarily and consciously conform to the work of the Spirit. Otherwise the works produced have no human attribution at all and the human person is reduced to the level of an automaton, hardly what God intends.
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It’s the faith, though, Christ living within a person, which does the works. Anything that isn’t of faith is sin:
Romans 14:23, “Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.”
Faith acts. If you say “faith AND works” are needed for salvation, then you’re saying faith AND not faith/unbelief are necessary for salvation. On the other hand, with saving faith, works will be present, though, because true faith naturally produces fruit. If there’s no fruit, there’s no faith.
The real issue here is one of how something is perceived and interpreted, and it’s no small matter because it goes to define our relationship with God. The actions a Christian takes to please God and obey Him — are they done by the faith of one who is saved by Christ, or are at least some done by the raw will power of the human being apart from Christ, the unregenerate sinner?
Here is another way of looking at it, too. This is a little story that I’ve seen African Christians post online:
Two guys were drinking in a bar.
As they were drinking, they started arguing, one guy pounce on his friend and started
beating him.
After a long beating he realised that his friend was no longer breathing, he already died instantly.
Then the guy started running with his
shirt full of blood.Those who were
watching the fight started chasing him.
He ran to the house of a Christian man, knocked and said,
“Can u please hide me, i have killed a person and people are chasing me.”
The Christian man replied ,
“Where am i going to hide you in my one room
apartment?”
The muderer said “There is no time to
waste here, just think of anywhere you
can hide me.”
After a long thinking, the Christian man
said to the murderer,
“Give me your shirt and take my shirt but remember to keep my shirt clean”
They exchanged their shirts.Then as
soon as the Christian man opened the
door, people started beating him and
was badly injured that he was taken to
the police station.
From police station, the case was taken
to court and the man was found guilty of
murder and was sentenced to death.
The real murderer was safe at home but
was feeling so guilty that he ran to the
Court and said,
“Can you please release that innocent man, am the real murderer”.
The judge replied “unfortunately it’s too
late, the man is already hanged at last”.
He ran to the police where the man was
hanged and for sure he
found him dead hanging.
He knelt down and cried his eyes out and said to himself, “ You paid for my crime”
He remembered the Christian’s last
words:
“KEEP MY SHIRT CLEAN !!!”
That’s how the murderer repented and
became a christian!
MORAL OF THE STORY ;
This is what Jesus did for us. He died for
the crime he did not commit on the cross of Calvary.
Now if you are thankful with what Jesus did for you, please keep his shirt clean. Please share with as many people as you can. God bless you. (END of quote). Cont’d....
Our sin did put Christ, God’s only begotten Son, on the Cross. We did kill Him. Jesus is also God’s Word, and we similarly killed Him through the sin of disobeying God’s Word. And whoever violates one part of the law is guilty of violating the entire law. We even hate, which is murder. All in all, we are all murderers in many ways before Holy God. So what “work” can atone for a murder? Isn’t it illustrative that no matter what “good work” a murderer may do in this life, that not a single thing can ever do anything to bring back the murder victim?
Then, too, in this story, Jesus exchanges shirts with the murderer and says to keep His clean. That message is conveyed in a number of places in the Bible. We’re given a clean shirt by God, through Jesus. It’s not our own. Our own is dirty. And, it’s wholly given to us, not partly.
Also consider the parable of the prodigal son. His motivation to return to his father was selfish — self-interest eventually woke him up, not love for his father or remorse. God’s Word says our righteousness is like filthy rags.
So the problem with the claim that we’re partly saved by our works, like there’s some goodness in ourselves that we can claim credit for, is that it always implies something noble on our part, something admirable that we can take pride in, which is Satanic on its face.
Now, it does make sense to believe that in there, somewhere, we do have an amount of free will that has just the right quality and quantity for God to judge us, and either choose to save us through His Son or to reject us eternally. But we can’t really identify it or put our own finger on it. In psalm 139, David asked God to search his heart. In psalm 19, he wrote, “Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.” And Jeremiah 17:9-10 says, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”
Isn’t it the case, too, that so often what we think are our good works aren’t so good at all, and might even be, according to what’s going on in our hearts, more evil than good?
We’re fallible, fallen creatures who aren’t capable of judging others or even ourselves. We need to depend on God, including for receiving any praise from Him. If we’re truly
do it, He’ll provide it. What we can safely do is praise the Lord and credit the Son of God for our salvation.
More on the “faith versus faith plus works” matter.
http://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3778053/posts?page=785#785
http://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3778053/posts?page=786#786
The Holy Spirit works through the Church. That is a miracle of God!
...and Catholics believe in the inerrancy of scripture. The poo pooing is in your head.
What’s the alternative? A fallible canon put together by fallible scholars. You can’t get infallible scripture from a fallible canon.
The Holy Spirit, working through the Church, gave us the Bible.
Just like the Holy Spirit, working through Paul, gave us Galatians.
Paul did not inspire the epistles, and the Church did not inspire the Bible.
We know that Faith alone, without works, is dead. Only faith, working through Love, means anything to Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit, working through the Church, gave us the Bible.
Just like the Holy Spirit, working through Paul, gave us Galatians.
Paul did not inspire the epistles, and the Church did not inspire the Bible.
We know that Faith alone, without works, is dead. Only faith, working through Love, means anything to Jesus Christ.
We know that Faith alone, without works, is dead. Only faith, working through Love, means anything to Jesus Christ.
There is a subtle change in what you're quoting. "Only faith, working through Love" is not the same as "faith without works". You are implying that we "work through Love" to accomplish our good works. I would say we have faith, and God gives us our good works as evidence of our faith. Anything that we might accomplish isn't because of us but because of Him. He is the vine, we are the branches.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
I didn’t mean to imply anything, but I am glad that you agree that Faith without Works is dead.
We both agree that you need Faith. And we both agree that Faith without works is dead.
Catholics would also agree with you that works alone are insufficient.
I don’t entirely know what you mean when you say “God gives us our good works as evidence of our faith.” I hope you are not implying that we somehow lose our free will - seems like you are trying to say Faith alone. Certainly God gives us grace, but are the ones running the race, obeying His commandments, and otherwise walking worthy.
“Free will” is never mentioned in scripture except in one (maybe two) verses in regards to an offering. There is God’s will and there is man’s will. They are at odds with each other.
Man is evil and will never do the things of God. John 2:25 tells us Christ did not trust Himself to man because He knew man was evil. Ezekiel 11:19 tells us God has to give us a new heart and spirt. Ephesians 2 tells us that we are created (reborn) for good works. John 15 tells us Christ is the vine and without Him we cannot do anything pleasing to God.
Anything good that we might do comes from the Father because of Christ working through His Spirit. Someday we will cast our crowns down before His feet because we will realize that without Him we are nothing. Anything that is not pleasing to God is the result that we are wretched sinners.
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