Posted on 04/07/2021 6:01:32 AM PDT by Cronos
The thing is - people do care - as you can see in the above discussions, people question the Trinity, some question whether Jesus is God (Jehovah’s witnesses), others whether Jesus is the Messiah for the Jews and the gentiles.
It is - Christianity is intrinsically a continuation of Judaism and Judaism is sternly monotheistic.
If you junk out the whole of Judaism, you end up with Marcionism - and even then that doesn't work. Gnosticism worked by saying that the Hebrew God was a false "godling" but then crashed as it didn't gel with what Jesus preached.
Yes they would
Remember that the followers of "the way" were called Atheists as they denied the "natural gods"
Even today in India, Christianity is not seen as polytheistic.
A Roman or Greek would see Christianity as some weird religion that didn't acknowledge that each group of people had its own god(s)
Let me also repeat - you asking questions about the Trinity is in no way any indication or reflection on your intellect.
I’m trinitarian but the term is the best of the worst descriptors of the Godhead. Each personage( FATHER, SON,SPIRIT) has their own part to play in the unity of the Godhead. Perhaps we should have just stuck to the Greek to English translation and just call it the GODHEAD in the descriptions of that unity and to pray in the pattern that Christ taught us to pray starting with “Father who is in Heaven” and then asking for things in Christ’s name as Christ instructed us to do.
Christ was come in the Flesh and had his own personality albeit as an expression of the Word that was with God. He could be tempted on all points as man can be tempted. He felt the fear of death and asked his father if the crucifixion he was facing could be nullified. 1John4 says that Christ was come in the flesh and any doctrine that says otherwise is of antichrist. John chapter 1 says that the WORD became flesh and dwelt amongst us. I am not an Arian supporter as even the Bible says that the son was with the father from the beginning and that all things were created by the Son and there is nothing that exists that wasn’t created by Christ. The full mystery of the Godhead will have to remain mostly mysterious, let us be satisfied that God loved us and extended himself to us thru the body of his son Jesus Christ. I think that is the most important thing to grasp and understand.
True religion and the image of Christ is built by the Spirit into the heart of a person. We have the Bible and the company of fellow believers as a safe guard against falling out of the way. The sad irony is that the church that stamped out Arianism eventually itself became embroiled in other heresies and thus the way was opened for the Reformation. God seeks to save those who are lost and will break the power of even “established’ institutions to save some lost souls where and when they will be saved.
Still for a thousand years, it was the western catholic churches and the orthodox churches that kept the light of Christ alive in the world. It is one thing Protestants must never forget!
Something that, incidentally, the Neoarian branches are doing with Christianity today.
If God accompanies Jesus at some point during the second coming, then we will know the Arianists were right all along.
Isaiah 45:5 - I am the LORD, and there is no other; there is no God but Me. I will equip you for battle, though you have not known Me
I think it is possible that the "Holy Trinity" concept/belief was derived to force the monotheism label onto Christianity.
It has to do with the wave sheaf and the symbolism. Christ had to be offered AND accepted as the sacrifice. When Mary saw him he had NOT yet ascended to the father to be accepted as the sacrifice. He was purified and could not be touched until he was accepted by the father.
I am saying if Jesus is the Son of God and also divine and God is well God then Christianity is polytheistic.
Let’s look at it another way for a sec ...
For the sake of argument, suppose you see a very pregnant lady. Is she one or two people?
She is one.
But ...
There’s also another, if you choose to see them or her that way.
God is spirit IN Christ Jesus, Our Lord and Savior.
The trinity is of God and we really, really want to understand everything about Him but we can’t. And for a very good reason: He is God.
I see what you are saying but I also think the other way that Christianity is bitheistic a form of dualism which I have no problem with.
I think the problem is that we have a habit of measuring God in the same way we measure humanity. God doesn’t have to be completely in one place at the same time, but man does.
Since Jesus was already in heaven before arriving here at birth, what was He there? We know that Jesus is ancient, just from what the OT told us about Him. What was this glory that he had beforehand? Was he a man there? Was He an angel?
Ok. Let’s say then that she’s carrying twins.
;-)
**err.. which verses do Trinitarians avoid in your opinion?**
The fact that Mr Pope chose to ‘explain’ John 20:17 (KJV), instead of simply believing it as written, is in itself an avoidance. Since, as it is written, it doesn’t help teach the co-equal trinitarian concept.
A verse that harmonizes nicely, without ‘modification’ is Heb. 9:24:
“For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself; now to appear in the presence of God for us.”
Eph. 1:17 also compliments John 20:17; like all verses, were written not to confuse, but to be understood as they are written: “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory......”.
Isaiah 9:6 shows the Son being referred to as “Everlasting Father”. (Which requires trinitarian ‘interpretation’.)
2 Cor. 15:22-28 is self explanatory as well; showing us that the Son has been given charge of the kingdom appointed unto him (Luke 22:29), but upon completion of defeating death worldwide, will give it to “God, even the Father” (vs 24), “and when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son ALSO HIMSELF be SUBJECT to unto him that put all things under him, that God my be all in all.” (vs 28)
I have much more in a book (which deals with several biblical topics) that I finally started writing about 3 years ago. Driving a big truck has made it a slow process, but I’m getting there (over 200 pages).
Ping to #76
Not necessarily. You have taken as truisms that
Note that those two books are fundamentally anti-Christian in nature, have facts but then have opinions around it - so I'd suggest reading them with a grain of salt, more as reading the opposing point of view.
To me He has to be either divine or a lying madman - He claimed to be One with God, He claims that He IS God and He accepts worship at the same time as asserting that there is One God. This is either a madman or God. Nothing else I see as a possibility
again Heb. 9:24 - I see this as the case where Jesus is 100% man and 100% God - so "My God" - Yet for someone who claims to be God and that there is only one God, this is unclear unless he means something like the Trinity
Two brother-gods: Ahura Mazda, the god of light and Aingra Mainya, the god of the lie. Equal in power, stature etc. and no one "winning" or "losing". Perfect balance.
A Christian dualism with Jesus and the Father doesn't make sense in the way of balance.
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