Posted on 06/27/2021 5:19:54 PM PDT by grumpa
No. The harlot hasn’t yet shown up on the world stage.
Read the OT prophetic books really slowly.
"12. Babylon is said to be resting on “seven mountains/hills” (Revelation 17:9). While Rome is considered a “city of seven hills,” so is Jerusalem. Jerusalem’s designation as the city of seven hills would have been more familiar to Jews of the first century. Here’s a map of the seven hills of Jerusalem:"
When was Jerusalem reigning over the kings of the Earth?
//When was Revelation written?//
My response:
TWENTY EVIDENCES WHY REVELATION WAS WRITTEN BEFORE AD 70
There is much confusion about Revelation because people reach their conclusions from the daily newspaper and their denominational echo chamber. Is that how we should interpret the Bible? Shouldn’t we rely on Scripture itself, and secondarily men who were closest in time to writing of the New Testament? That’s what I do in this article.
The dating of Revelation is important because it influences the interpretation of the book. There are two views of when Revelation was written. One view is that it was written around AD 95-96 during the reign of Domitian. The second view is that it was written in the mid 60’s AD, during the reign of Nero—prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. I will show that the early date has the strongest support from both the internal evidence and external evidence.
INTERNAL EVIDENCE
1. Revelation 17:10 says that the book was written during the sixth king, who was Nero, who reigned from AD 54-68. (The previous five Roman rulers were Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius.) Interestingly, the text also says that the seventh king to come would reign only “a little while.” The seventh king was Galba, who was ruler for only six months (AD 68-69).
2. Revelation 1:9 says it was being written during the Tribulation (Greek, thlipsis), which Jesus said would occur during his own generation (Matthew 24:15-34).
3. Scholars agree that the major theme of Revelation is a GREAT JUDGMENT upon “Babylon.” Babylon was an historic enemy of God’s people, and it is used symbolically in Revelation to represent Old Covenant Israel/Jerusalem who had become unfaithful. This is the theme of chapters 16-19. The Lord’s wrath, promised in Revelation, would come against “the GREAT CITY Babylon” (Revelation 18:21-24), which is clearly identified as the “CITY WHERE THE LORD WAS SLAIN” (Revelation 11:8-9). This unambiguously confirms that the Great Judgment was against JERUSALEM, and thus the identity of Babylon. Also confirming the identity of Babylon, is her description as a harlot (Revelation 17:1, 15; 19:2). Throughout the Bible, when Israel was unfaithful, she is characterized as a harlot or adulterer (Deuteronomy 31:16-18; Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20; 3:6-9; Ezekiel 6:8-9; 16:15, 26, 28; Hosea 1:2; 9:1). The harlot is adorned in purple and scarlet (Revelation 17:4), which are the colors of the ritual dress of the high priest and the colors that adorn the temple (Exodus 28:5-6; 39:1-2).
4. Revelation contains over 30 passages that demand its imminent, i.e. radical nearness of fulfillment. We see such statements as “must shortly take place,” “soon,” “near,” and “about to happen” (Revelation 1:1-3; 22:6-20; etc.). The wrath of God and the Lamb (Revelation 6:16-17; 14:19; 15:1, 7; 16:1; 16:19; 19:15), then, is consistent with Jesus’ astounding condemnation of his fellow Jews in Matthew 23, which He insisted would be judged for all the righteous blood ever shed on earth—IN THEIR GENERATION. This judgment was because of their sins, failure to accept Him as Messiah, and their participation with the Roman authorities in Jesus’ conviction and crucifixion (Matthew 27:25). There is nothing post AD 95 that could qualify as such an imminent (“must shortly take place”) judgment. Only a pre-AD 70 fulfillment (prior to the fall and judgment of Old Covenant Israel) makes any sense. Case closed about Babylon and the Great Judgment.
5. In Revelation 11:1, John was told to measure the temple. This implies that the temple was still standing when the book was written, thus prior to AD 70. While some argue that this is about a spiritual temple, it would be a bizarre instruction if given at a time when the physical temple was just a bunch of rubble. And of particular note, the destruction of the physical temple in AD 70 is not mentioned by John in Revelation. It is inconceivable that, if John was writing after AD 70, he would not have mentioned the destruction of the temple, it being the center of the Jewish faith.
6. Revelation 11:2 says, “They will trample the holy city for forty-two months.” This statement is consistent with Jesus’ statement to his contemporaries: “When YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you know that its desolation is near.” (Luke 21:20). Thus, some of those living in the first century would witness this. It cannot be coincidence that forty-two months is exactly the period of the Roman army’s final assault on Israel—from February AD 67 to August AD 70. So, Revelation had to have been written prior.
Continue here for the complete list:
//Revelation is about a woman, etc. which means a church.//
My response: Yes, she was a woman. But that does not mean the Catholic church. Israel, as a point out in the post, was called a whore whenever she was unfaithful.
Revelation: Its Central Theme Illuminated
by Charles S. Meek
THESIS: The central theme of Revelation is a story of two women—the harlot Babylon who is judged/divorced (Revelation 17:1, 5, 15; 18:9, 21; 19:2) and God’s new bride the New Jerusalem (Revelation 19:7; 21:2, 9). The faithless harlot is apostate Old Covenant Israel. The new bride is the Christian church. Note: Don’t accept or reject this thesis out of hand. Check all of the Scripture references in the article below.
WHEN WAS REVELATION WRITTEN? The evidence is strong that the book was written in the mid-60’s AD, prior to the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. Here are some important clues, among many others: It was written during the tribulation (Revelation 1:9; 2:9), which Jesus time-restricted to his own generation (Matthew 24:9, 21, 29, 34). It was written while the temple was still standing (Revelation 11:1). It was written during the reign of Nero, the sixth emperor of Rome (Revelation 17:10 “now is”) who ruled from AD 54 to AD 68.
WHEN WAS REVELATION FULFILLED? Revelation is a timeless book with universal relevance (Revelation 5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 13:7; 14:6). But the book contains over 30 passages that demand the imminent, i.e. soon, fulfillment of its major theme. We see such statements as “must shortly take place,” “soon,” “near,” and “about to happen” (Revelation 1:1-3; 22:6-20; etc.). While many Christians read thousands of years later into these words, this does violence to the text. Words mean something and God repeatedly used intelligible words of imminent fulfillment that can be clearly understood—as long as your mind is not cluttered with futurist presuppositions. God can tell time. And He does not deceive.
MAJOR THEME. Scholars agree that the major theme of Revelation is the defeat of “Babylon,” but disagree on what Babylon represents. Babylon was an historic enemy of God’s people, and it is used symbolically in Revelation to represent Old Covenant Israel/Jerusalem who had become unfaithful. This is prominent in chapters 16-19. Jesus’ wrath, promised in Revelation (6:16), would come against “the great city Babylon” (Revelation 18:21-24) which is clearly identified as the “city where the Lord was slain” (Revelation 11:8-9). This unambiguously confirms that the Great Judgment was against Jerusalem. Jesus came IN JUDGMENT in AD 70 just as God “came down” in judgment in the Old Testament against his enemies. There is an abundance of additional proof that Israel/Jerusalem was the target of judgment:
Babylon is described as a harlot (Revelation 17:1, 15; 19:2). Throughout the Bible, when Israel was unfaithful, she is characterized as a harlot or adulterer (Deuteronomy 31:16-18; Isaiah 1:21; Jeremiah 2:20; 3:6-9; Ezekiel 6:8-9; 16:15, 26, 28; Hosea 1:2; 9:1). The harlot is adorned in purple and scarlet (Revelation 17:4), which are the colors of the ritual dress of the high priest and the colors that adorn the temple (Exodus 28:5-6; 39:1-2).
In Matthew 21:33-45 Jesus told the Jews that the kingdom would be taken from them and given to another group, obviously the Christian church. In Matthew 23:29-39 Jesus told the Jews of his day that THEY were the target of his wrath. The blood of all the prophets EVER IN HISTORY would be judged against THEM (not some future generation). This is an astounding prophecy which cannot legitimately be assigned to any other group of people. Revelation has several DIRECT REFERENCES to Matthew 23—Revelation 16:6; 17:6; 18:24; 19:2.
It is irrefutably clear that the wrath upon Jerusalem in Matthew 23 (and elsewhere) would be fulfilled in Jesus’ generation per Matthew 23:36. The Great Judgment of which the Bible frequently speaks was directed squarely at the generation of Jews living in the first century. While each person is judged when he dies per Hebrews 9:27, the overwhelming number of judgment passages in the New Testament are about AD 70.
In summary, the central theme of Revelation is the coming judgment against Old Covenant Israel in AD 70, and the establishment of the New Covenant to its fullest. It is the same judgment—and predicted change of the covenants—spoken of throughout the Old and New Testaments (Deuteronomy 32:5; Jeremiah 31:31; Matthew 21:43; 22:7-8; Hebrews 8:13; etc.).
**********************************
See also my longer article about this here:
Now, I anticipate that you will ask some questions: What does the Bible teach about the nature and timing of the Second Coming? What is the New Heaven and New Earth? What is the New Jerusalem? Who is the Beast of Revelation? What is the Day of the Lord? What is the Great Tribulation? What is the rapture? You can find answers to all these questions at my website:
https://www.prophecyquestions.com/
//City of Seven Hills means Rome.//
My response: Jerusalem was also the city of seven hills. This link shows on a map each of the seven:
//The new age is fast approaching.//
My response: The Bible speaks of two ages—the “present age” and the “age to come.” We are in the “age to come” which is the Christian age — which has no end:
2 Samuel 7:13
Isaiah 9:7
Daniel 2:44; 4:3, 34; 7:14, 18, 27
Luke 1:31-33
Ephesians 1:21; 2:7; 3:21
Colossians 1:13-20
1 Timothy 6:16
Hebrews 1:1-12; 5:6; 6:20; 7:16-28; 13:20
Revelation 5:9; 7:9; 11:15; 13:7; 14:6
Jesus was opposed by the Pharisees, who promoted the “Oral Torah” (Talmud), from which modern Judaism is descended.
Babylon could be a reference to the Babylonian Talmud
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud
There’s no evidence for that.
//Revelation is about a woman, etc. which means a church.//
That’s not what I said.
I said: Grumpa, I want you to clearly note that Babylon is a woman (her) and that means a CHURCH. Scroll down under Revelation 18. It could not be any more clear than that. So, what church comes out of Rome and is still here today?
Post 37
The “preterist” Jew-haters have been out in force lately.
Maybe you can answer this question, which to this point, no one has been brave enough to touch.
Why did 300 years of Protestant reformers, upon finally getting hold of a copy of the bible, IMMEDIATELY identify the Catholic church as the Antichrist/Little Horn power? And yet, none of “you” do?
Peter didn’t write Revelation, so his use of “Babylon” doesn’t necessarily correlate with that in Revelation.
The Scripture is crystal clear that Babylon is a CITY personified as a whorish woman. Stop with the eisegesis already.
Christ used the term "Gentiles." He's in the Bible, so let's stick with using His terminology if you're okay with it.
The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The generation of Jews alive at the time of Christ's crucifixion did fall by the sword and was taken as prisoners/slaves to all the nations forty years later.
Every stone of the temple was overturned by Roman soldiers looking for melted gold which ran into the cracks from the intense heat of the burning temple.
So, this part of Luke 21:24 came to pass. And Jerusalem has been trampled under the foot of the Gentiles (non-Jews) for almost two thousand years until 1967 when Israel retook the entire city.
It's not a far reach to infer once Jerusalem is back under the control of the Jews that the time of the Gentiles will end. I think that is what we're witnessing now. 2028 will be the 2,000th year since the crucifixion, which began the age of the Gentiles.
The danger of the preterist view is that it causes those living in the end of the age to drop their guard instead of being on guard, as Christ warned us many times!
Matthew 24:43 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night…
Context:
The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
Luke 21:5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 "As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down."
7 "Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"
8 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away."
10 Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.
12 "But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.
20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
29 He told them this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.
32 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 34 "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
37 Each day Jesus was teaching at the temple, and each evening he went out to spend the night on the hill called the Mount of Olives, 38 and all the people came early in the morning to hear him at the temple.
When?
Are you going to plead the fifth?
Peter didn’t write Revelation...
But he did know the guy who did (John) and spent a lot of time around and with him. Peter also knew Jesus Christ, who just happens to be God. Babylon = ROME. The 4th beast is ROME. The LITTLE HORN comes out of ROME and last until the second coming of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church = ROME. No doubt about it.
Entertain this idea. John was writing at the time of Roman dominance and oppression. Rome was the enemy in Revelation but only because it was happening at the time. IOW God was showing what was going to happen using Rome as a reference point.
Now take Rome and move it into the modern day. What was Rome like? Dominated by men who thought that were gods (Caesars). Desperate to remove all who opposed it in cruel ways but otherwise entertained the masses with bread and circuses. They made destroying their enemies into entertainment. Their enemies weren’t necessarily a threat; they were just didn’t bow deeply enough or saw through the illusion of Caesar godhood. The church ended up hiding in the catacombs while Nero used Christians for street lights.
Are we moving towards such a time? Look at China and how they deal with the church. Canada moving that way. Destroying people for obeying the Bible rather than the government.
I guess someone forgot to tell Daniel about your theory.
Quote
Rome was the enemy in Revelation but only because it was happening at the time..
Appy, Rome sells Christ died on their false goddess frigg day.
Paul, and the scriptures, teach Christ died on Passover.
Rome sells Christ laid in the tomb on their false God saturn day.
Paul, and the scriptures, teach Christ laid in the tomb on Unleavened Bread.
Rome sells Christ rose on their false God sun day.
Paul,and the scriptures, teach Christ rose the 3rd day from Passover,the Feast of First Fruits,the Father’s 16th day,and 1st work day..
Rome is an enemy.
They sell another version of biblical events. Even and especially, the first/chief importance of the gospel.
Rome doesn’t get His birth, circumcision and presentation in the temple right either.
But because they control time, they get to set the rules.
The very first protesters of Rome would have labeled Rome’s Pope Gregory calendar Antichrist if it was around.
Today, thanks to Rome and Antichrist Papacy,the world thinks false goddess frigg day,holy false God saturn day, and false God Sunday is the Father’s 6th,7th,1st days..
The Father’s 6th day is Passover.
The Father’s Sabbath is Unleavened Bread
The Father’s 1st day is First Fruits.
Rome is still the enemy.
It has changed times and law.
It has created another Jesus and another gospel.
Just because Rome appears Judeo Christian today,doesn’t mean it is following the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
It counterfeits Truth.
Just like Satan.
And the world may actually find itself fulfilling prophecy daily, deceived by Satan and wandering after Daniels 4th Beast and Antichrist.
Most would admit that isn’t an entertaining idea. But it explains so much.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.