There is precisely ZERO biblical evidence for any kind of “rapture” which involves pulling “the church” (which is and always has been Jewish AND Gentile) out of the way so God can get back to “plan A” of some nationalistic political entity centered in Jerusalem.
You simply do not find this kind of nonsense in the Bible. You have to “read it in” to various passages, having first been convinced of a theological system which was NEVER discussed in the church by the early fathers, the reformers or literally ANYONE before Darby got his “revelation” from a Scottish Irvingite (a heretic in the early 19th century) milkmaid.
Becoming fixated on some non biblical scheme of “final things” has caused US Christians (this view is not very widely held outside the USA among Christians) to focus on irrelevant and often antibiblical silliness of supporting “Israel” no matter how diabolical and evil that government of atheists are. Not only that, they play you like a fiddle and laugh at you behind your back.
Well, I guess we’ll see...won’t we?
lol ... that didn’t take long ... lol
I was with you up to this point...
“antibiblical silliness of supporting “Israel” no matter how diabolical and evil that government of atheists are. “
That’s where the sickness is revealed.
See if you can correct that issue.
The only thing that comes to my mind is the flood, believers are not destined wrath.
Welcome to FR.
‘ irrelevant and often antibiblical silliness of supporting “Israel” ‘
…. is not going to earn you a long stay on FR.
IBTZ
Your whole theology is based on your pride imho.
OH look at the noob who claims he’s a Christian (you’re really a CINO or atheist) and hates Israel.
Good luck with that dude!
Genesis 12:3 curses you.
ALL will one day see Jesus Christ.
Some, (the Philadelphian and Symrna church) will see Him at least seven years before the likes of the Laodicean church will see Him for example. When you come to the point of understanding this, your on the right track.
Don’t confuse the snatching away and the Second Coming.
*see Revelation 3: chapters 2 & 3.
*see Revelation 4:1 (the catching away of the true church)
*see Revelation 19:11-17 (the Second Coming)
Even more directly to your anti Semitic views, some will not see Him until they are standing before the White Throne without an Advocate.
*see Revelation 20:11-15
God gives us free will, use it wisely.
Philippians 2:6-11
King James Version
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Funny. You do know we have sermons and letters teaching the rapture as early as the 2nd century, right? What I cannot find is early records of date setting. They may be there, but date setting seems to be a modern phenomenon. Beginning with the early Church, the teaching of imminence has been taught, where the believer has been admonished to prepare for Christ’s to take the church to where he is, which can happen at any time.
Was it "diabolical" and "evil" when the ancient Israelites exterminated the Canaanites?
Perhaps Israel is "diabolical and evil" because it "oppresses" the Arabs? Then I guess Rhodesia and South Africa were oppressive too. The Commies used to attack all three and made no distinctions among them.
Oh, and "dispensationalism" does have some benefits. It ultimately saved me from Xianity and made me a Noahide.
You are correct. The Scripture makes it very clear that when Jesus comes back (His 2nd Coming) everyone will see Him. “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Matthew 24:30,31. There is no imminent secret part way coming of Jesus to take the Church out before the Great Tribulation. The Church will go through the Tribulation. We will not go through the Wrath of God. Big difference there. It’s unfortunate that there is division in the Body because of this wrong teaching.
Don’t confuse what the actual words of the bible says with doctrinal opinions manmade as to when the rapture should occur.
The Bible in several places mentions a time when the dead in Christ shall arise first, and then those who were alive also are taken up. The Bible mentions the “day of resurrection” when all in Christ are given incorrutible bodies and we are like him for we see him as he is. Revelations says these changed people Rule with Christ judging both men and angels on the Earth for 1000 years while those dead without Christ stay dead during that 1000 years.
Matthew 24 offers some clarity on the rapture issue but Christ himself did not and would not give a precise time for all the wonders and horrors concerning the “days of the coming of the son of man”.
There will be a “snatching up” of the elect. Christ never gives a precise time for it because he wants us watching and diligently working at God’s business when he comes.
Who are these snatched up people...the body of believers or the church of course.
You can read the OT as to the importance of Israel in the days after the Son of Man’s foot touches down on the mount of Olives and the mountain splits in half. Israel is so important that once a year if a tribe doesn’t send a delegation to the new Jerusalem, then their lands will receive no rain. That tells me that Messiah indeed rules with a rod of iron during those times!
You are 100% correct. The eyewitness below, attests to this fact.
“I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an utterance in Mr. Irving’s Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, while not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation in the same flesh and blood as His brethren, but without taint of sin. p. 26.”
The Hope of Christ’s Second Coming: How is it Taught in Scripture? And Why? S. P. Tregelles. March 17, 1864.
****Tregelles was an EYEWITNESS to the event, when Margaret MacDonald made those utterances.****
You are 100% correct. The eyewitness below, attests to this fact.
“I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an utterance in Mr. Irving’s Church, from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether any one ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God, while not owning the true doctrine of our Lord’s incarnation in the same flesh and blood as His brethren, but without taint of sin. p. 26.”
The Hope of Christ’s Second Coming: How is it Taught in Scripture? And Why? S. P. Tregelles. March 17, 1864.
****Tregelles was an EYEWITNESS to the event, when Margaret MacDonald made those utterances.****
Let me expand on that statement
i>parousia - coming
Rapturists think that there is a different usage for each, but that is incorrect - parousia is not used just for some fake "rapture" and the others for the 2nd coming
Paul doesn't mention this 19th century rapture idea as occuring before the appearance of the antichrist and before the second coming is simple: it never entered into his mind that anyone would believe Christ would rapture His Church before the final Eschaton
In the apocalypse, that is referred to as the battle with Gog and Magog, Christians will participate in that confrontation because there will be no secret rapture before it. Our comfort rests in Him who will emerge from that confrontation as the Victor.
THAT is the reassurance Paul offers, not the promise of an escape from the great Tribulation.
To look at scripture
Let's look at the whole chapter, let's look at 15:20-26
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [r]imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this [s]perishable must put on [t]the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
The Order of Resurrection 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christs at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.The order is clear
First, Christ was raised bodily from the dead. This event stands as a prophecy concerning our own personal future. Christ was the first fruit of those who have salled asleep
Second, Christians will be raised from the dead.
Third the end comes
THAT is the order. This is NOT the Rapturist timeline
Paul lays out a timeline that excludes the possibility of any pre-Trib secret rapture -- there is NO mention of a two-stage coming split into a secret rapture and a later public second eventthere is not even a hint of a secret rapture
There is one resurrection mentioned (not two as per the rapturists) and only one coming event -- immediately after this coming, not seven or 1000 or 1007 years later, the end arrives at which Christ delivered the Kingdom to God
Now we go onwards to 1 Corinthians 51-54
>Rapturists say this is about a secret rap-game. But why? there is certainly nothing in this text that cannot be understood perfectly well as happening at the traditional second coming. In fact that is a better was to understand the text. Paul tells us that not all Christians will die, but that "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye... we shall all be changed"The secret rapture does not fit this passage. When death is destroyed and we are all raised, all tombs will be forever emptyWe read that this will occur "at the last trumpet" -- the image of trumpets like in Zeph 1:14-16, Zech 9:14, Amos 3:6 etc. is LOUD and no secret rapture
Furthermore, this si not just any trumpet - this is the "last" trumpet The dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed at the end of time
But this last trumpet will not occur 7 or 1007 years before the end. The LAST trumpet sounds LAST
"When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory'" At the time of this trumpet, death will be destroyed -- YET Paul has ALREADY mentioned that "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" (1 Cor. 15:26)
Then if we look at Thessalonians 2
and 1 Thess
In 2 Thessalonians, Paul is writing shortly before the Jewish-Roman War begins in 67 AD [1] And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him: [2] That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, [4] Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. [5] Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?The REVOLT - the Jewish revolt in 67 AD. The Man of Sin - Nero. And then Nero's statue in the temple.
[6] And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him, [9] Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, [10] And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:Rapturists make the incorrect claim that Christians had been secretly raptured 3.5 years before the Temple worship was corrupted
But this is incorrect scripturally, historically and factually. Paul wrote Thessalonians to encourage a group of Christians who were afraid they had been "left behind" yet he explicitly does NOT speak of the "blessed hope of the rapture" to comfort the worried Thessalonians. NOWHERE in this passage is there even a message of the rapture. In this passage the rapture is missing in action.
The reason Paul does not mention the rapture as occuring before the appearance of the antichrist and before the second coming is simple: it never entered into his mind that anyone would believe Christ would rapture His Church before the final eschaton
1 Thess 4:13-17 or rather the whole 1 Thess 4 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [k]in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [n]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.And very clearly in verse 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto sanctification.What does this actually teach?
St. Paul wrote to the Thessalnian Christians because they were worried about those who died before Christ's return. Many in the ancient world believed that a person simply ceased to exist upon death.
These was a rumor in Thessalonica at the time Paul wrote the letter that the dead Christians had lost out on any chance of a physical resurrection. St.Paul assures them that it was not so. In fact, "the dead in Christ will rise first" to meet Christ
Rapturists make the mistake of thinking "meet the Lord in the air" is about Christ not actually touching the earth.
The word St. Paul uses for meeting the Lord "in the air" is aer the Greek word for atmosphere
This SAME word is used in Ephesians 2:2
And you [a]were dead [b]in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the [c]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.yet no one would claim that, because of this word, Satan wouldn't influence people on the earthA consistent rapturist reading of this wod here would mean that only airplane passengers are influenced by Satan's power
NO, when Christ returns to the earth's atmosphere, He has returned to earth
Rapturists trying to point to the "coming in the clouds" -- but this ignores the symbol of divinity in the clouds
The Bible uses three Greek words interchangeably
- parousia - coming
- epiphaneia appearing
- apokalupsis revelation
Rapturists think that there is a different usage for each, but that is again, incorrect- parousia is not used just for some fake "rapture" and the others for the 2nd coming
Paul doesn't mention this 19th century rapture idea as occuring before the appearance of the antichrist and before the second coming is simple: it never entered into his mind that anyone would believe Christ would rapture His Church before the final Eschaton
In the apocalypse, that is referred to as the battle with Gog and Magog, Christians will participate in that confrontation because there will be no secret rapture before it. Our comfort rests in Him who will emerge from that confrontation as the Victor.
THAT is the reassurance Paul offers, not the promise of an escape from the great Tribulation.