Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Well I will pray you don't die in the period's between addressin your sins:)
If I haven't even done the sin yet, there is no way I can atone for it.
I agree. We must always ask forgiveness of our sins. We will want to ask forgiveness of our sins. But the ultimate atonement has already been made. ALL sins were taken care of at the cross. It is up to us to accept that. Our goodness doesn't save us our sinfulness doesn't condemn us.
John 3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not beleived in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Becky
Hmmm... the way I'm reading Dave's posts here is that he is not saying that those who are truly saved can lose their salvation. Rather, he is questioning that one can know that one is truly saved. If this is correct, then it is not a matter of trying to maintain salvation by one's works, but rather that one cannot have certain knowledge of one's own salvation. Am I on track here, Dave?
The hard thing for me to make sense of is the idea of it being three separate persons. If the theological language spoke of the Word and the Spirit as being manifestations or facets or functions or emanations of the Divine Being, that would make more sense to me. To me, saying that God is three "persons" implies that God has three distinct personalities. That is what I can't grasp.
The definition is one of relationships, both with us and amongst themselves. Not of "personalities," per se. The Father is like a father, while the Son is like a brother. The Spirit is an animating force, a helper, a healer. I don't believe the theological definition of "person" is supposed to mean that their are distinct "personalities" as we regard the word.
SD
Wow I agreed with Rest yesterday and today I agree with you . Like the parable of the prodigal son God knows we are his children and keeps the light on for us.
I'm sorry that you found my humor "nasty" or tasteless. I've been a Christian for a year and half. I would expect that you would give me the same leeway that you would give anyone new to the faith.
That's it. The only way to know for sure is to continue on the right path, doing what are called works and avoiding sin as much as possible.
My twins example from last week was trying to flush this out. On the day they got "saved" both Mike and Mark would have felt the same and answered any questions the same. But if 10 years later, Mark drifts away and denies Christ and falls into a hedonistic life, what happened on the day he got "saved"? And what of his "assurance" of salavtion?
I have discerned two schools of thought here. First is that he was never really saved, the entire thing was a self-deception of some sort. this makes sense cause we don't like to think about some God denying, commandment breaker going to heaven just like Ned Flanders does.
But it calls into question our capacity to truly know what our status is, outside of the good behavior which James says we should exhibit to demonstrate to others our salvation.
Which is my point.
The other school of thought is intellectually more straightforward. Mark remains saved no matter what he has fallen into. He might get punished or otherwise chastened and will eventually return to following the faith, amen. His rewards will be less in heaven, but he is still admitted.
This is troubling for its tendancy to antinominaism and for the fact that necessitates a radically non-egalitarian afterlife. I tend to think that we will finally be equal in God in Heaven. The things that seperate us now will dissipate and we will be united.
To allow a slacker and willful sinner into heaven is to require that he be on a "low rung" in heaven, while those who led holy lives are, what? Better treated, given nicer homes, served food rather than being the servants?
SD
The resurrected Jesus Christ CAN NOT be made out of created material. He is the one that created all matter, both seen and unseen. The substance he is made out of has to be eternal stuff, the same stuff as God the father, stuff that is not of this world. He must be made of this stuff or he is no longer God or part of the Godhead. Do you understand?
So Jesus Christ before the Crucifixion wasn't God? Or wasn't human?
Jesus is both man and God, and His body here on earth before the Crucifxiion was indeed like any other human body, made of "created matter."
Your argument falls apart. If having a body of matter makes you cease to be God, then Jesus never was God in the first place.
SD
Here's a thought... Maybe you aren't really being forgiven again, maybe you are re-presented that initial forgiveness.
Catholics believe that the death of Jesus was a one-time sacrifice that echoes forward and backward in history, and is "made present" in the eucharist. Individual salvation could work the same way -- at the moment you are saved, all your sins, past and present, are forgiven. However, since you live within time, you obviously haven't experienced the future yet. So when you reach that point, when you sin and repent, you are looking backward to that forgiveness. "Repent" means, among other things, returning to the right path. The net effect of forgiveness, whether done 10 years ago or today, is the same. The time difference is meaningless to God.
If I haven't even done the sin yet, there is no way I can atone for it.
As a Christian, don't you think Jesus did the atoning for it 2000 years ago?
In the meanwhile the average household has many more "windows" than "apples".
IF IT'S A WINDOW IT IS BOUND TO BREAK!
This is part and parcel with having an open system. The Mac may be more bullet proof, but it also is closed. With a PC I can buy an inexpensive kit and interface my own hardware to the bus, or to other peripherals, and then write software to perform various functions. This is becasue the hardware and software are open and published information.
You can't do engineering and tinkering with a Mac, which is why it is only found in certain niche markets, like artsy design. Heck, the Mac has the one button mouse cause Steve Jobs thought having more than one would confuse his target audience. KISS
SD
Thank you. I'd be interested in your take on my #65,328.
Terry, why did you pull a quote out of context and then respond to as if it was the only part of the quote?
Here's the evolution of the "quote":
*******************
CARepubGal: Silly question: what is Biunity? I understand the difference between trinitarian and tritheist quite well but this is confusing.
Rnmomof7: Dougs doctrine holds that the Holy Spirit is not a member of the trinity ..He has a two part god. father and son ..thus the BI Unity not the TRInity
CARepubGal: :shakes head: What is the role of the Holy Ghost in that doctrine? Comic relief? < /end sarcasm>
Doug: You should know not to ask anyone who's been disagreeing with me for three days what doctrine I believe.
Wrigley: Why, because you won't be able to give your filtered spin?
Doug: No, because it comes out like this:
"Wrigley believes that God wants everyone but him and a select few others to go to hell and burn in endless agony forever."
Now if I represented that as your view to a third party who didn't know your views, would you try to clarify it?
************
This may or may not be an accurate assessment of Wrigleys beliefs. But the point is that describing his belief as such and stating it as fact doesn't mean he agrees with it or that it is accurate. Just as you incompletely describing my beliefs doesn't make them accurate.
As you define it, yes.
Yes, that has occured to me.
The net effect of forgiveness, whether done 10 years ago or today, is the same. The time difference is meaningless to God.
But not to us. That's my point. Just like God provide the Eucharist to accomodate our linear time, so does He offer forgiveness to us in time. He knows people need to feel bad in order to grow, which is why He gave us a conscience and guilt. And when one feels that, they need to receive forgiveness. This all for one, one time forgiveness doesn't fit the human pattern, as far as I can tell. Actually seems counter-productive to me. Knowing that I was "already forgiven" I might be tempted to go ahead and sin. Whereas knowing that I would need to repent again, might change my mind.
As a Christian, don't you think Jesus did the atoning for it 2000 years ago?
Yes, of course. I meant that I would need to make that atonement efficacious on my own soul. Sorry for the shorthand.
S
The definition is one of relationships, both with us and amongst themselves. Not of "personalities," per se. The Father is like a father, while the Son is like a brother. The Spirit is an animating force, a helper, a healer. I don't believe the theological definition of "person" is supposed to mean that their are distinct "personalities" as we regard the word.
Thanks Dave. So "relationships", which would seem to indicate something more than "functions/modes", and something different from "distinct personalities". Steve, Terry, does this sound right to you? What is the theological definition of "person" (in reference to "divine persons", anyway?
Could have been 1 spark, too. What was it about?
Well, I have no intention of "going for" the last post, but it would be nearly impossible to assure it went to Malakhi unless he was encouraged to spam the last 25-50 or so.
I think someone needs to dig up a graphic from Mel Brooks' The History of the World. Ya know, when they reached "The End."
SD
Unless one of you are the Sons of Perdition (SOP) But I see this as ~
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
So it is not so much of one losing one Salvation as his Reward or where he will reside for all eternity!
***
Matt. 16
24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
(Verse 25 and 26 were used as a closing in many Presbyterian church)
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Either a sign that we should hold hands and sing Kumbayah, or sign #861 that the end is near. ;o)
I have no idea how you got this out of what I said Dave.
Jesus is both man and God, and His body here on earth before the Crucifxiion was indeed like any other human body, made of "created matter."
Agreed.
Your argument falls apart. If having a body of matter makes you cease to be God, then Jesus never was God in the first place.
That's an incorrect assumption about my argument. My argument was about the nature of Christ before and after his incarnation. He can not have been made out of created material BEFORE his incarnation for the simple fact that he existed before there was created matter.
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