The Mass of Vatican II

berned, I really think you are telling the truth, and I think you genuinely believe in your faith. I am certain, however, that you were not properly raised a Catholic, through no fault of your own, or your parents. The Faith is NOT being instructed with a proper formation within what is passing for Catechism. I really believe this explains a lot, and why your friends within your church are often lapsed Catholics. They want moral absolutes, which they get within your teachings as they would get within the Catholic Church (more so in that the Church rejects, on the authority of Christ and Scripture and Tradition: divorce) they did not get proper instruction, however. Which we as the laity now, more then ever, must begin to demand! V's wife.

God bless you! sandyeggo (love the screen-name). I have spent time trying to educate myself. I can only say: get a copy of the Catechism. It is so simple and beautiful. It is easy to read. Plus, kicking around here at FR will teach you plenty! We have an amazing treasure trove of posters who are besotted with their faith, if I may. This goes for Catholics and Non-Catholics, and most are enlightening in a charitable way. I have learned much here, some posters are not so nice, although even some of the mean ones have cleaned up their acts of late and speak in more charitable voice. V's wife.

Thank you for your kind post. I will tell you the truth, (and hope that it doesn't infuriate you, as it does others.)

I attended Catholic school in the 60's. We were not taught about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We were taught about Mary, the Saints, the Pope, The Rosary, The Stations of the Cross, Lent, Purgatory, etc. We were taught that if you ate a ham sandwich on Friday, then were hit by a car, you would go to Hell for all eternity.

When I got out of school, and began to read the Bible for myself, I saw NONE OF THAT. (We were taught that "only the priests could understand the Bible", and that we shouldn't even try. You can imagine my shock and anger when I read the Bible for myself and saw the REAL reason they taught us that. The Protestant explosion began when catholics were able to read God's Word for themselves for the first time.)

Anyway, for the record, I believe many Roman Catholics ARE true Christians, ARE saved, and WILL go to heaven. But the Vatican is... well, I dare not say what I think the Vatican is.

You mention your diocese teaches a pro-gay catechism. The Bible says in no uncertain terms, that "No homosexual will enter the Kingdom of Heaven". Black and white. No wiggle room. That SHOULD be the end of the story, right? But it isn't, because Catholicism has no tradition of teaching and revering God's Holy Word. So everything becomes negotiable.

I believe this is a long-ago formed strategy from the Vatican that began with keeping the Mass in a dead language, so no-one would even know what the priests were saying. It continues today, where the Catechism has supplanted the Bible, so they can cherry-pick those verses that can be used to cobble together the RC "doctrine". (This is one reason why the Jews don't accept Jesus. They no longer read the Bible, they read the TALMUD. If they read the Old Testament, there are so many prophesies about Jesus, they would HAVE to believe.)

Well, I grant you the bible is the best place to go to hear our Lord. The Vatican isn't endorsing the homosexuals, its errant Bishops and priests who have failed. Protestant fundamentalists and Baptists also have gay ministries at odds with the leaders of their various denominations. I am sorry you were taught by ignorant teachers of the Faith who lacked the talent of true instruction. I urge you to get the Catechism book I mentioned and to read through it. Because when you criticize the Church, you must first look at her document and take issue with the specifics therein. It is not enough to point to a misguided teacher. It is not enough because the mass was said in Latin. In fairness, that is not enough. V's wife.

BTW, my diocese does not teach a pro-gay Catechism, my daughter's school endorsed a pro-gay catechetical book. My diocese does teach a Human Sexuality component of the Catechism must be taught. This is in opposition to what the Pontifical Council on the Family insists must be taught. It is dissident. But the Vatican teaches that homosexuality must not be taught, promiscuity must not be, aids curriculuum must not be, birth control and abortion must not be. I think you would agree with the letter, to the letter. V's wife.

Having said that, I agree with ventana in post #38 that any Catholic religious training I would have had in those years (I'm 41, right on, ventana) would probably have been useless, and still would be today.

I'm with you guys. I'm 42 and the ONLY thing that saved me was an inquisitive mind. I attended Catholic HS, but never learned about the "Catholic Faith" - but fortunately, we did get through the Bible in Religion Class. I attended Catachism throughout my childhood, but don't recall being properly taught what the Catholic faith is. It is possible that a part of the negligence was my disposition and age at the time, I'm not sure. I imagine that we really listen when we are ready, or when God calls us to listen.

It really took being married to an (agnostic) Lutheran for me to study Protestantism and Catholicism, and that, coupled with the reading of some of the lives of the Saints (in particular, Padre Pio) has led me to slowly, over the years, cement the love that I have for the Catholic Church, and by that I mean the way She teaches Christ's message.

I thank God every day that Catholicism brings me to Jesus and His message of Salvation. I am brought to tears at times during Mass for the great gift I have been given because I am privledged to be a part of the sacramental Catholic community.

Just my 2 cents!

believe this is a long-ago formed strategy from the Vatican that began with keeping the Mass in a dead language, so no-one would even know what the priests were saying

Sorry, Ace. The Mass was changed from the Greek (The Kyrie is retained from that Mass) into the vernacular Latin that Pope Siricius loved. That happened PRIOR to 400 A.D. A surprising number of Romans spoke Latin (sarcasm)so that mendacious strategy of your beliefs was doomed from the start

love that I have for the Catholic Church,

Bingo. There is the problem in a nutshell. No Fundamentalist Christian would EVER say "I love the Protestant Church". We say "I love Jesus Christ". The current scandals your faith is experiencing today is the direct result of this mindset.

For example, when Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Bakker sinned mightily, it didn't even put a dent in any Evangelical's faith. They were punished, (Swaggert's ministry evaporated, and Bakker went to jail), and that was that. BECAUSE, Jesus and The Bible are what our faith hinges on. Not a church or denomination or ANY individual human(s). There is no "central guy" that we look to for action or guidance OTHER THAN Jesus Himself.

Ventana's (wife) you wrote:

It is not enough to point to a misguided teacher

It wasn't A teacher. It was my whole diocese teaching this stuff, from the nuns to the priests to the Monsignor. And it was the same with all my cousins in different Parishes and Diocese. They learned the same stuff I did. And I dare say, ALL American Catholics, who went to parochial school in the 60's had the SAME exact experiences. Comedians like George Carlin do routines about what we were taught in catholic schools in the 50's and 60's and everybody gets every reference because catholic teaching was the same all across the nation.

love that I have for the Catholic Church,

Bingo. There is the problem in a nutshell. No Fundamentalist Christian would EVER say "I love the Protestant Church". We say "I love Jesus Christ".

Well, Bingo yourself. Why did you take only PART of the sentence that you quoted me on? This is what I wrote:
...the love that I have for the Catholic Church, and by that I mean the way She teaches Christ's message.

Granted, I did misswrite. I should have written "the way that She teaches us to live Christ's message.

The current scandals your faith is experiencing today is the direct result of this mindset.

My faith is experiencing no scandals.

What I realized I was doing, though, was internalizing my faith too much, and not helping my boys enough in their spiritual growth. I am working to change that right now; that is my fault, since I worked too hard to strike a balance between my non-Catholic husband and myself. A mistake.

It is hard to be married to a non-Catholic, isn't it? I also have internalized (read: marginalized) my faith over the years in order to "keep the peace" or so that my husband wouldn't think I was a "holy-roller" or something. I have totally turned that around and now live it and talk it every day. I don't want my kids to grow up and say what I said in my previous post - I wasn't taught in my youth. I also know that faith is the most important gift we can pass on to our children. I happen to believe that that faith is best taught and understood by the Catholic Church (or at least the Catachism of the Catholic Church).

This is entirely my point. I did not call your story a lie berned. I was referring to your claim that Catholics don't read the Bible. That is a bald faced lie. There are 4 readings from the Bible within Sunday Mass and the entire Mass is based on Scripture. If you had ever been to a Mass you would have known that. That's how I know you are speaking directly from fundamentalist talking points.

Maybe you went to Catholic schools, maybe you didn't. I went during the 70s and I NEVER was told any of that garbage you claim to have been told. That kind of stuff is what fundamentalists are taught to attack with. My attitude is uncharitable and mean-spirited? Perhaps. But I've been on the receiving end of verbally abusive fundamentalists for far too long and I've had it. To disagree with another's faith is one thing, but to spread lies is quite another.

"Bingo. There is the problem in a nutshell. No Fundamentalist Christian would EVER say "I love the Protestant Church". We say "I love Jesus Christ".

Well there ya go! You are a Fundamentalist and you are so good. We are Catholics and we are so bad. You love God and we don't. You ARE better than us, holier than us and just smarter and who knows what else. We belong to a bad church. Yes bad, bad, bad. Is that what you need to hear? Happy now?

What is it you want from us Catholics anyway? If you are trying to win souls why don't you go after fallen away Methodists or lukewarm Presbyterians? I never see Fundentalists evangelise them with nearly the same amount of zeal as they do Catholics. Snagging a Catholic must be a real feather in your cap.

There are 4 readings from the Bible within Sunday Mass

What about the millions of masses, prior to the advent of English mass which were said IN LATIN? What use were the Bible readings THEN, when no-one even spoke or understood the language? What benefit were the "Bible readings" to common parishoners who had no idea, FOR CENTURIES, what the priests were even saying ?

Even today, the priest reads the words as if they were "magic incantations". There is NO TEACHING regarding what the scriptures are about, what their context is, how it relates to other scriptures. This is how the Roman Catholic Church pays lip service to God's Holy Word while teaching unscriptural LIES like "it's a sin to eat meat on Friday", "there is a place between heaven and hell called 'purgatory'" (which you can BUY your way out of) , "Mary is the intecessor between man and Christ" etc etc etc

speaking directly from fundamentalist talking points.

Fundamentalists engage in Theological debate with Catholics for the exact same reason Jesus endlessly debated with The Pharisees. To correct their man-made religion of "tradition", which was designed to keep people (and their money and their children) in bondage to THEM, and THEIR teachings. Fundamentalists want people to know that Catholic Doctrine is false for the same exact reason Jesus wanted common people to know the true Gospel of Jesus, and that it was at odds with what the powerful, organized, wealthy, elite Pharisees were "teaching".

You told berned: "That kind of stuff is what fundamentalists are taught to attack with. That's how I know you are speaking directly from fundamentalist talking points. "

That is very, very insightful. FUNDAMENTALIST TALKING POINTS. Exactly. They remind me of Moonies sometimes. They all have the same song and dance. Of course if you rebuff them then you are rebuffing Jesus Christ himself. It's almost cult-like the way they operate.

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