[xzins]

Martin Luther (who had a very robust Marian devotion and whose tomb is decorated with an illustration of the Assumption of the Virgin into Heaven) it seemed to me that it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our fear of her rather than Catholics who were excessive in their devotion.

Mary is deserving of at least the respect we afford a John the Baptist or an Isaiah. She truly was used by God.

That, however, is far different than making her captive to a doctrine of "original sin" that requires us to "remove" that kind of sin from Jesus by postulating a "sinlessness" for Mary. Do you realize that the only support for the "immaculate conception" of Mary is a logical argument....there isn't a bit of scripture. The support is that since God knew his Son would be born to Mary wouldn't it make sense for him to have had her "born pure?" That's it. No other support.

The same is true of the Assumption of Mary. There is no canonical support for her being taken into heaven in an "Elijah-type" uplifting/translation. It is a logical argument only. It says, "Jesus was Mary's son. Son's love their mothers and would do what they can to keep them from pain and suffering. Therefore, Jesus in heaven prevented pain and suffering for his mother by "translating" her into heaven."

These are logical arugments based on a form of piety. There is nothing, though, that REQUIRES them to be true.

[RnMomof7]

Amazing we have agreement here huh? Morning xzins

[nina0113]

You missed another logical argument for the Immaculate Conception:

Since every woman (and man) since Eve had been stained by Original Sin, the only way for Mary to have the same freedom of choice that Eve did to obey or disobey God's Will, would be for her also to be created free from Original Sin, as Eve was.

[Gophack]

Maybe this will help:

To a Catholic "Full of Grace" is what God commanded Gabriel to say to Mary, calling her not by her mere name, nor even by her title, but by her REALITY! God doesn't give titles without infusing the reality of the title. Mary alone, of all humans, received that title; she alone has that reality. If you are full of Grace, or full of anything that means there is not room for anything else. If Mary had had sin, she would not have been FULL of grace, and Gabriel would have been speaking error. Thus this small phrase points very clearly to Mary's Immaculate Conception. In fact, the phrase doesn't make sense without it.

God bless.

[nickcarraway]

She truly was used by God.

You think she was used by God as some cheap tool?

If you don't believe in immaculate conception, then you believe the Gospel is wrong.

[nickcarraway]

N.B. Martin Luther adorned his own coffin(or whatever it was) with a depiction of the Assumption of Mary.

[nickcarraway]

These are logical arugments based on a form of piety.

I take it you don't believe in the Trinity.