For Whom did Christ die? - Puritan Logic (Calvinism)

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[CCWoody]

FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?

John Owen

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The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

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[CCWoody]

A tidbit of good ol' Puritan logic from the good doctor.

[ventana]

Limited but lovely. It flies in the face of the promise made to us by our Lord, but then, that's Calvinism for ya.

[CCWoody]

You would be suggesting that the Lord promised to pay for all the sins in the whole world! Scripture source please....

[ventana]

I am not suggesting any such thing, but merely pointing out faulty logic.

"Whosoever believeth in me shall not perish but have everlasting life" "The Elect" does not and cannot equal "Whosoever," ever.

Not getting in the boat is not a sin, but the boat is what keeps you from drowning.

[Jerry_M]

Re. 4

We believe that all mankind is not only not in the boat, but has already drowned. Man doesn't need a lifeboat to save him from eventually drowning, he needs a heart transplant to give him new life because has has already drowned in his sin.

Where do you find support that "The Elect" does not and cannot equal "Whosoever," ever. ??

[RnMomof7]

This could be a lively debate Woody :>)

[CCWoody]

Really, there are only 2 possibilities with the cross:

1. Christ actually paid for sins on the cross.
2. Christ did not pay for sins on the cross.

If Christ did not pay for sins on the cross, then by what means do you obtain remission of sins since there was no shedding of Blood on your behalf?

If Christ did pay for sins then why should not "getting in the boat" be any great hindrance?

BTW, your boat analogy is totally wrong as we are dead in sin, not drowning in sins.

[kjam22]

Christ died for the ungodly.

[ventana]

Enjoy yourselves. Having pointed out error, I'm moving on. You are free to fail to grasp the truth.

[kjam22]

It kinda cheapens what Christ did on the cross when one claims that He didn't die for everyone. That his grace is not sufficient for everyone. That he only died for a select few. That his grace can only apply to a select few. That attonment is limited by God and the limited sacrafice of Christ.

[CCWoody]

Where do you find support that "The Elect" does not and cannot equal "Whosoever," ever. ??

Perhaps the elect are the angels--as in the elect angels.

Unfortunately for the Arminian, who wants self-election, being elect as the angels are elect would mean that no man would ever be saved.

[JWinNC]

"I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not?"
It is.

"If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not."
He did.

"If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died?"
Because belief (or lack thereof) is unique. It is the ONLY requirement for Salvation.

"If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"
He did.

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Peace,
JWinNC

[babylonian]

Jesus did die for the sins of all. That's God doing His part. This piece leaves out the part where God (Jesus) puts the onus on each individual to accept it, and the consequences of not accepting it.

It's like you've been invited out for dinner. You can choose not to go, but if you stay home, you don't get the dinner.

[kjam22]

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

What Paul really meant is that the free gift unto justification of life came upon the "elect" because of the righteousness of one. Right??

[CCWoody]

It is quite evident that not one of these non-Calvinist understands sin.

And they are all saying that Jesus suffered for sinners whom God will then turn around and punish in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Thus, God punished twice the same sins. And they call Calvinism sick!

I wonder if the Bible says that unbelief is a sin....

[DittoJed2]

You answer, "Because of unbelief." I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

And if unbelief is that sin which makes people forfeit that which Christ did for them, then what about those who never get an opportunity to believe or not to believe? Do they get a get-into-heaven free pass because they live in ignorance of what Christ did? And, if so, is there then some other way to heaven than by explicit faith in Jesus Christ (such as dying in complete ignorance)?

[Jerry_M]

"It kinda cheapens what Christ did on the cross when one claims that He didn't die for everyone. That his grace is not sufficient for everyone. That he only died for a select few. That his grace can only apply to a select few. That attonment is limited by God and the limited sacrafice of Christ."

"It kinda cheapens" what Christ did on the cross to say that His death might have saved everybody, but didn't actually save anybody. That is the non-Calvinist "construct".

[DittoJed2]

"Whosoever believeth in me shall not perish but have everlasting life" "The Elect" does not and cannot equal "Whosoever," ever.
Whosoever will may come, but nobody had the will to do so. So, God in grace elected some. Those are the ones who will believe thanks to the gift of faith and regeneration which God Himself does in the life of a believer. Those who do not believe are still condemned because they never wanted God to begin with.

[Zack Nguyen]

I have never seen it put that way before. That is a profound thought indeed that I need to chew on...

[CCWoody]

God is a Being of infinite worth.

When man trangresses against God, he is committing a transgression of infinite magnitude. He has fallen short of the glory of God.

The just condemnation of such a man is of infinite separation.

When a Being of infinite worth suffers on behalf of a man whose transgression is of infinite magnitude then He has made a Propitiation of infinite value.

Any man to whom such a Propitiation is imputed is perfectly and eternally restored.

And because by one man all men became transgressors of infinite magnituded, so the Propitiation of a Being of infinite worth perfectly restores all to whom such a Propitiation is imputed.

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A lack of belief of such a Being or a lack of belief of such a Propitiation is a slap in the face and is a transgression of infinite magnitude against the Being of infinite worth.