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Christ Died For Me But Not for You: Did He Die for All or ONLY a Preselected Few?
Middletown Bible Church.org ^ | Middletown Bible Church

Posted on 07/23/2002 7:40:31 AM PDT by xzins

The Cross-Work of Christ

Is It Limited or Unlimited?

 

 

What Does the Bible Teach?

SALVATION

Unlimited Salvation

Limited Salvation

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men..." (1 Tim. 4:10a).

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son...

"The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world" (1 John 4:14; compare John 12:47).

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved" (John 3:17; and compare Matt. 18:11; Luke 9:56; 19:10; 1 Tim. 1:15).

"We know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42).

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9).

"For the bread of God is He which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world" (John 6:33).

"...if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world" (John 6:51).

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared unto all men..." (Tit. 2:11a).

Also compare Acts 4:12 and Acts 5:31.



"...specially (especially, particularly) of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4:10b).

"...that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16b).

"God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him" (1 John 4:9).

"And thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people (Israel) from their sins" (Matt. 1:21).

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

"I have much people in this city" (Acts 18:10).

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (Rom. 10:9).

"And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved" (Acts 2:47).

"For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom. 10:13).

"...teaching us...looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ" (Tit. 2:12b-13).

"but unto us which are saved" (1 Cor. 1:18).

"And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Heb. 5:9).

"He that hath the Son hath life" (1 John 5:12).



REDEMPTION

Unlimited Redemption

(Universal Redemption)

Limited Redemption

(Particular Redemption)

"Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).

"Who gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim. 2:6 and compare verse 1-"all men," and verse 4-"all men").

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9).

"There shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1).

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6).

Compare John 12:32-33 (John 3:14)

"He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Heb. 9:12).

"In whom we have redemption through His blood" (Col. 1:14).

"For ye are bought with a price" (1 Pet. 1:18-19).

"Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity" (Tit. 2:14).

"But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us...redemption" (1 Cor. 1:30).

"Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).

See also Romans 4:25; 14:15; 1 Corinthians 8:11; John 10:11; Acts 20:28; Revelation 1:5; Galatians 1:4; 3:13; Ephesians 5:25; 1 Thess. 5:10; Hebrews 1:3; 1 Peter 2:24.



RECONCILIATION

Unlimited Reconciliation

(Universal Reconciliation)

Limited Reconciliation

(Particular Reconciliation)

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:19)

"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:18)

"We pray (beg) you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Corinthians 5:20)





PROPITIATION

Unlimited Propitiation

(Universal Propitiation)

Limited Propitiation

(Particular Propitiation)


"...and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

"And He is the propitiation for our sins..." (1 John 2:2a).


FIVE INDISPUTABLE FACTS

 

1.         Without question, the Bible teaches that not all men shall be saved:

 

Matthew 7:13-14; 25:41,46; 2 Thess. 1:8-9; Rev. 20:11-15; 21:11,15; etc.

 

2.         The Bible teaches that God desires all men to be saved and to come to a full-knowledge of the truth:

 

1 Timothy 2:4 (cf. Matthew 18:14; 2 Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 18:23,32; 33:11) and see our study called, God's Willingness and Man's Unwillingness.

 

 

3.         The gospel is to be preached to every creature and all men everywhere are commanded to repent:

 

Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38 "every one of you"; Acts 3:26 "every one of you"; Acts 13:38; 17:30; 20:21; 26:17-20; Romans 16:26; 1 Cor. 1:23.

 

4.         Salvation is offered to all men and "whosoever will" may take of the water of life freely.

 

Matthew 11:28-30; John 1:12; 3:15-17; 4:13-14; 6:35-37,47,51,54,58; 7:37-38; 10:9; 11:25-26; 20:31; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43; 13:38-39; Romans 1:16; 6:23; 10:11-13; Revelation 3:20; 22:17.

 

5.         It is the responsibility of all men to obey the gospel by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

John 3:18; 3:36; Acts 16:30-31; 17:30; 2 Thess. 1:8; 1 Peter 4:17.

Sir Robert Anderson, in the preface to his book Forgotten Truths, said this: "In the early years of my Christian life I was greatly perplexed and distressed by the supposition that the plain and simple words of such Scriptures as John 3:16; 1 John 2:2; 1 Timothy 2:6 were not true, save in a cryptic sense understood only by the initiated. For, I was told, the over-shadowing truth of Divine sovereignty in election barred our taking them literally. But half a century ago a friend of those days—the late Dr. Horatius Bonar—delivered me from this strangely prevalent error. He taught me that truths may seem to us irreconcilable only because our finite minds cannot understand the Infinite; and we must never allow our faulty apprehension of the eternal counsels of God to hinder unquestioning faith in the words of Holy Scripture."

     Life is offered unto you, Hallelujah!

     Eternal life thy soul shall have,

     If you'll only look to Him, Hallelujah!

     Look to Jesus who alone can save!


                           Look and live, O sinner live!

                           Look to Jesus now and live!

                           'Tis recorded in His Word, Hallelujah!

                           It is only that you "look and live."


                                    --William A. Ogden (John 3:14-16)

 




TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: atonement; limited; unlimited
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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File this away. It is proof that Christ died for all.....including you. Those who teach otherwise IGNORE all the scripture above AND focus only on scripture that EXCLUDES YOU.

They cannot look honestly in the eyes of a crowd and say, "Christ died for you." Why can't they do that? Because they believe a lot of those folks are eternally doomed, and all the prayer in the world, all the repentance in the world, all the faith in the world will NOT avail unto the salvation of one who God picked to be damned from before the foundation of the world.

File this away. It's proof of God's love for you IN CHRIST!!

1 posted on 07/23/2002 7:40:32 AM PDT by xzins
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To: fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; ShadowAce; P-Marlowe; Revelation 911; The Grammarian; ...
truth bump: This is a really complete article that you might absolutely want for your files. If you'd like the html source code, freepmail me.
2 posted on 07/23/2002 8:06:06 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
asbestos suit of righteousness bump against those that would LIMIT Christs sacrifice, thereby LIMITING His work on the Cross and the WORK of His Father to include only a certain few who will be saved despite themselves.
3 posted on 07/23/2002 8:40:47 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: Revelation 911
Since you don't think the scope of the atonement is limited, either you believe its efficacy is limited, or you're a universalist.
4 posted on 07/23/2002 9:00:06 AM PDT by A.J.Armitage
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To: xzins
Great Post! Thanks!
5 posted on 07/23/2002 9:32:33 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: xzins
They cannot look honestly in the eyes of a crowd and say, "Christ died for you." Why can't they do that? Because they believe a lot of those folks are eternally doomed, and all the prayer in the world, all the repentance in the world, all the faith in the world will NOT avail unto the salvation of one who God picked to be damned from before the foundation of the world.

Nice spin, xzins, but you're arguing against a position the Calvinists do not hold. The faith, repentance, and prayer to which you refer are not present in those who are not elect. Under your Arminian theology, anyone who would have these God would "foreknow" and elect. Calvinist theology maintains that only those elected could possibly have those things in the first place because in man's natural state these are not present. Whether it's your theology or ours, there will never be a case in which there's some poor man who believes upon the Lord, repents and prays for forgiveness and is subsequently denied because God decided to save a random number of people irregardless of their depravity (arbitrarily) instead of saving some from their just deserves and leaving the others to the same (mercifully and graciously).

What you now seem to be doing is trying to trap us by saying that if we are right then we must be completely dishonest in our evangelism because we can't say truthfully that "Christ died for YOUR sins" when we don't know if they are elect or not. Clever, but at best your argument would then be a call for Calvinists to stop making blanket statements like that. It still doesn't strike at the truth of Calvinism.

All the table shown above shows me is why this debate continues after all this time. Clearly there are verses that on the surface do not reconcile with each other. You no doubt feel that no Calvinist has successfully and reasonably reconciled many of the above verses about "the world" and "all men" just as I feel that no Arminians have successfully and reasonably reconciled verses about "those the Father has given Me" and those "chosen before the foundation."

I look forward to standing beside you in the New Jerusalem laughing at how simpleit will seem to us then:) Until then...

6 posted on 07/23/2002 9:36:43 AM PDT by Frumanchu
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To: A.J.Armitage
Thats your refutation to the thread ?
7 posted on 07/23/2002 10:04:40 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: xzins
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men..." (1 Tim. 4:10a)

So all men everywhere ARE already saved correct? They need do nothing more than exist?

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son... "The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world" (1 John 4:14; compare John 12:47).

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

That is a LIMITED all ..all that the Father gives

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved" (John 3:17; and compare Matt. 18:11; Luke 9:56; 19:10; 1 Tim. 1:15).

Is the whole world saved? "We know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42).

The word " world "here means

8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc) 8b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

Read it xzins are you so desprate that you would mis state the word of God?

This announces that salvation has also come to the Gentiles..

Or are you saing that all the men in the entire world ARE already saved? Do you REALLY want to go with that rendering?

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9).

    Jhn 1:5   And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 1:10   He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. "For the bread of God is He which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world" (John 6:33).

Jhn 3:19   And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Job 24:13   They are of those that rebel against the light; they know not the ways thereof, nor abide in the paths thereof.

1Cr 2:14   But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

"...if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world" (John 6:51). "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared unto all men..." (Tit. 2:11a).

Tts 2:14   Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

8 posted on 07/23/2002 10:16:30 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Revelation 911
If you accept the defination given by xzins it is a universal atonment..skip church..go live like hell ..heaven is a done deal
9 posted on 07/23/2002 10:21:27 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Revelation 911; xzins; fortheDeclaration
A.J.Armitage : Hobbies: reading, slacking, and bitch-slapping Arminians and statists.

Note to self - what a charming Christian

10 posted on 07/23/2002 10:23:26 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: xzins

The REAL TRUTH


11 posted on 07/23/2002 10:33:05 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Revelation 911; drstevej; A.J.Armitage; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; ShadowAce; ...
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/profile?u=13804

That is from AJ Armitage's FR personal page. Do any of your pages say such a thing? If so, repent, and change them.
12 posted on 07/23/2002 10:33:26 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
Your page should look so good or have so much substance..

BTW last time I looked a Bitch is a female dog..call PETA

13 posted on 07/23/2002 10:36:09 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; ShadowAce; P-Marlowe; Revelation 911; The Grammarian; ...
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/profile?u=13804 That is from AJ Armitage's FR personal page. Do any of your pages say such a thing? If so, repent, and change them.

His page says his hobby is "bitch-slapping" arminians. Rev points this out above.

14 posted on 07/23/2002 10:37:06 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
If you want to know the truth on salvation, just consult Catholic doctrine.
15 posted on 07/23/2002 10:38:06 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: xzins
Predestination is a joke. You have the free will to follow Christ or not.
16 posted on 07/23/2002 10:39:01 AM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: RnMomof7
Please don't feel you have to defend AJ's page simply to avoid agreeing with xzins. AJ's comment isn't really becoming a child of the Lord, which isn't to say he is therefore not one. I think it's unneccesarily vulgar. Just my $.02
17 posted on 07/23/2002 10:40:17 AM PDT by Frumanchu
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To: Frumanchu
I will tell you what I just told xzins in a fr mail

If he (or the rev that first posted it) were really interested in the correction of a young brother in Christ he would have sent him a personal rebuke as per the scripture admonition.

Instead they wanted to publically embarrass him and by extrention all the Calvinists

A BTW word to the Arminians people that live in glass houses should know better than throw stones

18 posted on 07/23/2002 10:48:18 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Conservative til I die
Predestination is a Biblical truth (see Rom 8:29-30, Eph 1:5,11). The debate is over how we understand the workings of it in relationship to salvation. Predestination in and of itself is a Biblical fact.
19 posted on 07/23/2002 10:54:31 AM PDT by Frumanchu
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To: xzins
Execellent Article!

Thank You!

(bookmarked)

Maranatha!
m

20 posted on 07/23/2002 11:00:47 AM PDT by maestro
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To: RnMomof7
Your #13 takes you out of the discussion by your own standard.
21 posted on 07/23/2002 11:03:07 AM PDT by xzins
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To: maestro; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; The Grammarian; Revelation 911
Thanks, maestro. You might want to send it to all your friends (email or ping). It is just about the best exposition on the subject that I've ever seen.
22 posted on 07/23/2002 11:05:02 AM PDT by xzins
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To: Frumanchu
The debate is over how we understand the workings of it in relationship to salvation.

I admire your honesty and independence. You are absolutely correct above.

23 posted on 07/23/2002 11:06:31 AM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7; xzins; fortheDeclaration
Your page should look so good or have so much substance..

BTW last time I looked a Bitch is a female dog..call PETA

Main Entry: 1bitch Pronunciation: 'bich Function: noun Etymology: Middle English bicche, from Old English bicce Date: before 12th century 1 : the female of the dog or some other carnivorous mammals 2 a : a lewd or immoral woman b : a malicious, spiteful, or domineering woman -- sometimes used as a generalized term of abuse 3 : something that is highly objectionable or unpleasant 4 : COMPLAINT

Hmmm, were seeing the "abuse" word arise once again

To see you justify that explains alot - First the_doc threatens Brian, woody makes a "666" post, AJ "bitch slaps" and you support it in jack booted lock step, supportive of ANY calvinistic behavior because you are too prideful to do otherwise.

That is delicious "Free Will" irony at its best

Back to the topic ma - If God predestines the unelect to failure and evil - He is the author of evil - How can that be?

Did God predestine you to be supportive of AJ's sinful statement or did you freely choose to do it -

24 posted on 07/23/2002 11:13:13 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: RnMomof7; xzins; fortheDeclaration
If you accept the defination given by xzins it is a universal atonment..skip church..go live like hell ..heaven is a done deal

"definition" ma

Heaven is a done deal according to OP actually - he says if I am "elect", I will be saved despite my being a heretic arminian. - Im assuming you differ from this sentiment NO?

25 posted on 07/23/2002 11:16:03 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: Revelation 911
You accused us of limiting Christ's sacrifice. You do the same, unless you're a universalist.
26 posted on 07/23/2002 11:18:33 AM PDT by A.J.Armitage
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To: RnMomof7; xzins; fortheDeclaration; Frumanchu
A BTW word to the Arminians people that live in glass houses should know better than throw stones

I recall you coming unglued about posts of yours on my homepage - did you rebuke me privately ? - Did I eventually honor your request?

Having never met a humble calvinist here - The chances of a calvinistic college boy bending a favorable ear were extremely unlikely -

HE IS ENTITLED TO POST WHATEVER HE LIKES ON HIS HOMEPAGE - just dont whine when someone points out how non-Christian it sounds while discussing doctrine and professing holiness by construct de calvinism

Leave it up for all I care - It makes my point perfectly

27 posted on 07/23/2002 11:23:28 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Since rev wasn't man enough to ping you, I thought I would.
28 posted on 07/23/2002 11:24:00 AM PDT by Wrigley
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To: Frumanchu
Fru, I believe we'll both be in heaven together. Despite our differences we can be friendly and we can be friends. Better, we can be fellow Christians.

On the subject you objected to, here is an additional quote from a calvinist (4 pointer) named Rhodes:

Many passages indicate that the Gospel is to be universally proclaimed, and this supports unlimited atonement.
Matthew 24:14: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Matthew 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

Acts 1:8: "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

Acts 17:30: "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."

Titus 2:11: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."

In view of such passages, it is legitimate to ask: "If Christ died only for the elect, how can the offer of salvation be made to all persons without some sort of insincerity, artificiality, or dishonesty being involved? Is it not improper to offer salvation to everyone if in fact Christ did not die to save everyone?"

"How can God authorize His servants to offer pardon to the non-elect if Christ did not purchase it for them? This is a problem that does not plague those who hold to General [Unlimited] Redemption, for it is most reasonable to proclaim the Gospel to all if Christ died for all."

Those who deny unlimited atonement cannot say to any sinner, "Christ died for you." (After all, he may be one of the non-elect.)

Reformed counselor Jay Adams comments: "As a reformed Christian, the writer believes that counselors must not tell any unsaved counselee that Christ died for him, for they cannot say that. No man knows except Christ himself who are his elect for whom he died."

Louis Berkhof, a defender of limited atonement, admits: "It need not be denied that there is a real difficulty at this point."

Theologian Robert Lightner comments: "Belief in limited atonement means that the good news of God's saving grace in Christ cannot be personalized. Those who hold to such a position cannot tell someone to whom they are witnessing that Christ died for him because that one may, in fact, not be one for whom Christ died." Such Christians believe the gospel must be presented in very general terms, such as: "God loves sinners and Christ died for sinners."

29 posted on 07/23/2002 11:26:47 AM PDT by xzins
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To: Revelation 911; fortheDeclaration; maestro; RnMomof7
If you accept the defination given by xzins it is a universal atonment..skip church..go live like hell ..heaven is a done deal "definition" ma Heaven is a done deal according to OP actually - he says if I am "elect", I will be saved despite my being a heretic arminian. - Im assuming you differ from this sentiment NO?

Rn can point out no place where I've ever said that I'm a universalist -- not one, not ever. She can only find places where I've said that only believers will be in heaven.

30 posted on 07/23/2002 11:32:05 AM PDT by xzins
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To: A.J.Armitage; xzins; fortheDeclaration
You accused us of limiting Christ's sacrifice. You do the same, unless you're a universalist.

No, by the T.U.L.I.P. you as a Calvinist do - "limited atonement" get it? -

Rather Christs atonement was unlimited & man harbors the sin to deny Him. To limit atonement, excuses sin as being a creation of God in the "unelect" - Are you saying God is the author of sin?

31 posted on 07/23/2002 11:35:42 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: Wrigley; xzins; fortheDeclaration
Since rev wasn't man enough to ping you, I thought I would.

Spare me your snit - how many times do you folk talk about us without pinging - dont claim the high road - Its not your to travel

32 posted on 07/23/2002 11:39:00 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: Revelation 911; A.J.Armitage; fortheDeclaration; drstevej; winstonchurchill; The Grammarian; ...
calvinists certainly do limit Christ's sacrifice.

Essentially, they make it of no effect, but that is a different subject.

To your point, they limit it by saying that it was a valuable enough sacrifice to pay for the sins of everyone of all time, but that God INTENDED/DECIDED that some would never BE ALLOWED to share in its benefits. (We have enough food for the hungry orphan, but get him out of here....he bothers us.)

We say that the atonement was more than sufficient and that ANYONE can receive the benefit simply by receiving the (gracious) free offer of (gracious) forgiveness. (We have enough food for the hungry orphan; see if someone can coax him over here.)

33 posted on 07/23/2002 11:46:54 AM PDT by xzins
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To: Revelation 911
Actually I think I did ask you personally several times as well as publically .

My purpose was to get that removed not to embarrass you

34 posted on 07/23/2002 11:47:29 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
WHEN "ALL" ISN'T ALL!

(Mat 2:3 KJV) When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

Did every person in Jerusalem hear Christ and was everyone troubled?

(Mat 3:5 KJV) Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

(Mark 1:5 KJV) And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Did everyone in Judaea and all the surrounding region come out to see John the Baptist and then get baptized?

(Mat 10:22 KJV) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Does this all include Christians?

(Mat 25:31 KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

(1 Tim 5:21 KJV) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Here we see that all the holy angels are the elect angels of God!

(Mark 1:37 KJV) And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee.

(Rom 3:11 KJV) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Does everyone seek Jesus? Better Question does anyone seek Him?

(Rom 5:18 KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Is The second "all" equal in meaning to the first "all"?

(Mark 9:23 KJV) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

If I believe I can I fly, should I jump off a building?

(Mark 13:23 KJV) But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Did Christ tell us when He is returning?

(Luke 2:1 KJV) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Did the Inca's, the Chinese, the American Indians have to pay a tax too?

(Luke 2:10 KJV) And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

Does the unbeliever rejoice in Christ or do they celebrate Santa Claus?

These questions were not meant to be mocking or disrespectful to the Bible but merely to expose the reality that as God uses the word "pas" He qualifies the use of that as we shall see in the next section as we see when "all" is "all."

________________________________________________________________

When "All" is "All"!

(Luke 2:20 KJV) And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them.

The Shepherds rejoiced over all the things they heard and saw.

(Luke 2:47 KJV) And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

Those who were present to hear the words of Christ in the temple.

(Luke 3:16 KJV) John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Here we see that John the Baptist spoke to all who heard him.

(1 Cor 10:1 KJV) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

Did not all the Israelites pass through the Red Sea and were under the cloud as spoken of in Exodus? (Exo 40:36 KJV) And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went onward in all their journeys:

(Rom 9:6 KJV) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Here God speaks of two Israels. He states that not all those of national or physical Israel are of the Israel of God, which is the redeemed body of Christ.




We have taken a few verses and we have easily seen that God uses the word "all" in two ways: First, to show completeness of what is in view (when all is all); secondly, to show a completeness within the context of entirety. (when all is not all) Here is an example of that:

The news comes on and reports that an airliner crashed in New York City and all were killed. Who was killed? Those in the airliner or all those in New York City? Do you see the principle of completeness within the context of entirety? The inhabitants of the plane were killed but not everyone in New York City. The same careful method of linguistic application must be applied to biblical interpretation or a wrong conclusion will be arrived at. The sorry reality is that the majority of Christians neglect (whether intentional or unintentional it is still neglect) this method of interpretation to cling to an emotionally palatable doctrine because they REFUSE to believe what the Bible teaches. Now let us go on to the words that seem to say that man controls their spiritual destiny.

[At this juncture let me insert that the Greek word "pas" does not carry with it an element of time or timing.It just synonomously translates as "all, every, each, everyone, everything," without any timing reference. This means that those who try to make this word into a word of "timing" a.k.a. "don't leave tonight until you get saved" are forcing a meaning and usage on this word which does not exist.]

(John 3:14-16 KJV) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: {15} That whosoever (pas) believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. {16} For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (pas) believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(Mat 7:24 KJV) Therefore whosoever (pas) heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

(Mat 10:32 KJV) Whosoever (pas) therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

(John 11:26 KJV) And whosoever (pas) liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

(Acts 2:21 KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever (pas) shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(Acts 10:43 KJV) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever (pas) believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

(Rom 10:13 KJV) For whosoever (pas) shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We have looked at enough verses to give us the understanding that the word "pas" does not carry with it timing, rather it discloses a certain group. As we have previously seen in our study that the whosoevers are the ones which God calls because only they can: believe, hear, confess. does the commands of Christ, live the spiritual life, call on Him. Let us look at our second word which seems to relate a free-will manner of salvation.

"Hostis" (ostis)

"Hostis" is a word which is also translated "whoever, who, whichever, whatever, anyone who." This word, like "pas" does not carry a reference to a time or timing but is understood in the context of how it is used. Let us look at some examples:

(Mat 10:32-33 KJV) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. {33} But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 12:50 KJV) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

(Mat 18:4 KJV) Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

(Mark 8:34 KJV) And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

(Luke 14:27 KJV) And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

(Gal 5:4 KJV) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

(Gal 5:10 KJV) I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

As we can plainly see this word also speaks of a group of people who: confess, do the will of God, humble themselves, and come after Christ. This word also shows us another group of people in these verses. Those are the ones who: deny Christ, does not bear the cross, justified by the law, and those who trouble Christians. In other words, this one word is used in the grammatical context of describing both believers and unbelievers, yet the meaning of "I can accept Christ anytime and anywhere I want" is forced on this word also without regard to its true meaning.

Another aberration of the interpretive process instilled upon Scripture is done to the phrase "whosoever will." The free will proponents take "will" in that context to mean that you (the whosoever) is exercising your will to be saved. Whosoever WILL! Again the same situation applies. Let us look at some examples in Scripture of this phrase:

(Mat 16:25 KJV) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

(Mark 8:34-35 KJV) And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. {35} Forwhosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

(Rev 22:17 KJV) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The word "will" in all these verses comes from the Greek word "qelw" (thelo) which carries the meaning of "to wish to have, desire, to be willing, or to purpose to do." The primary meaning of "thelo" is desire. As we have seen in many verses that man is spiritually dead and only God can open our spiritual eyes to biblical truth and give us the desire to seek Him. The word "thelo" is used 210 times in the NT in 33 different inflections. It never carries a meaning of the exercising of a free will in regards to salvation. Let us look at just a few of those verses:

(Mat 17:12 KJV) But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

(Luke 18:13 KJV) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

(1 Cor 14:35 KJV) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

(2 Pet 3:5 KJV) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2 Peter 3:5 is interesting as it shows us that people "desire" to be ignorant.

35 posted on 07/23/2002 11:51:05 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Hey, Rn, go read ftd's article on "Willing vs Unwilling"

It'll probably change you into an arminian.

36 posted on 07/23/2002 11:51:23 AM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7
Since this is the article you just posted as a new thread, can I assume you simply post it here to be informative?

You realize, don't you, that many scholars disagree with "matta" (???) on some his conclusions on many of his verses.

I will be the first to allow the context to determine whether the "all" in question to be a universal or not.

I will not allow someone else's THEOLOGY to determine it. In your article it is as often theology as it is context.

37 posted on 07/23/2002 11:55:35 AM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7; fortheDeclaration; Revelation 911
Since this is the article you just posted as a new thread, can I assume you simply post it here to be informative?

You realize, don't you, that many scholars disagree with "matta" (???) on some his conclusions on many of his verses.

I will be the first to allow the context to determine whether the "all" in question to be a universal or not.

I will not allow someone else's THEOLOGY to determine it. In your article it is as often theology as it is context.

38 posted on 07/23/2002 11:55:58 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
I doubt it . Because unlike you I am not afraid of the truth . You want to be god and be in control..you even deny the work of the Holy Spirit in your own salvation..

Hey why not? You think that all men everywhere are saved .

So folks go to pasor Xzins church you can live like hell and still enjoy heaven..it is a done deal

39 posted on 07/23/2002 11:56:45 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; xzins
My purpose was to get that removed not to embarrass you

Agreed, as it was not my own comment - but yours - Rather, your own embarassed you. Nonetheless, you engaged in a mild whisper campaign.

So am i to understand you agree with AJ's sentiments?

40 posted on 07/23/2002 11:57:12 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: RnMomof7
I doubt it . Because unlike you I am not afraid of the truth . You want to be god and be in control..you even deny the work of the Holy Spirit in your own salvation.. Hey why not? You think that all men everywhere are saved . So folks go to pasor Xzins church you can live like hell and still enjoy heaven..it is a done deal

To all lurkers, readers, posters: the above is what is known as a personal attack. Is there an appropriate way to respond to it?

41 posted on 07/23/2002 11:59:01 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
You realize, don't you, that many scholars disagree with "matta" (???) on some his conclusions on many of his verses.

Don't you know that Wesley was anti reformation and a puppet of Rome? So I would expect that the followers of Wesley just may have a problem with truth

42 posted on 07/23/2002 11:59:09 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
To your point, they limit it by saying that it was a valuable enough sacrifice to pay for the sins of everyone of all time, but that God INTENDED/DECIDED that some would never BE ALLOWED to share in its benefits. (We have enough food for the hungry orphan, but get him out of here....he bothers us.)

Let me ask you a few questions:

1. Did Christ die for all sins of all people for all time?
2. Did He cover the sins of the elect both before and after their conversion?
3. Did He die for the sins of the non-elect for their entire lifetime?
4. Would you define not believing in Christ/rejection of Christ as a sin?

43 posted on 07/23/2002 12:02:02 PM PDT by Frumanchu
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To: xzins
That was < scarcasm> ..rev..

universal salvation means just exactly what I posted ..all every where saved..that is what xzins is saying .Talk to him if you do not agree

44 posted on 07/23/2002 12:04:17 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; sinkspur; Goldhammer; Gophack; allend; FormerLib; TrueBeliever9; ...
Don't you know that Wesley was anti reformation and a puppet of Rome? So I would expect that the followers of Wesley just may have a problem with truth

Why are you engaging in this kind of rudeness?

Your post also indicates you hate catholics....where does this bitterness come from?

45 posted on 07/23/2002 12:04:30 PM PDT by xzins
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To: Revelation 911
Was I claiming the high road? Wrong assumption. You may want to get rid of that chip on your shoulder.
46 posted on 07/23/2002 12:06:35 PM PDT by Wrigley
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To: Revelation 911
No, by the T.U.L.I.P. you as a Calvinist do - "limited atonement" get it? -

Of course I do. And so do you, unless you're a universalist. I say the scope is limited. You say it's universal in scope, but of so little power that humans can foil it.

To limit atonement, excuses sin as being a creation of God in the "unelect"

Nonsense.

47 posted on 07/23/2002 12:07:24 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage
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To: RnMomof7; Frumanchu; Revelation 911; fortheDeclaration
That was < scarcasm> ..rev.. universal salvation means just exactly what I posted ..all every where saved..that is what xzins is saying .Talk to him if you do not agree

Show me where I have ever said that. I have always said that the offer is for all but that only believers are saved.

You have my opinion on record again. Are you going to continue to deal in a known falsehood? If you do, what does that make you?

48 posted on 07/23/2002 12:07:32 PM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7; xzins
Don't you know that Wesley was anti reformation and a puppet of Rome? So I would expect that the followers of Wesley just may have a problem with truth

John Wesley's Notes; But he that had the mark, namely, the name of the first beast, or the number of his name - The name of the beast is that which he bears through his whole duration; namely, that of Papa or Pope: the number of his name is the whole time during which he bears this name. Whosoever, therefore, receives the mark of the beast does as much as if he said expressly, "I acknowledge the present Papacy, as proceeding from God;" or, "I acknowledge that what St. Gregory VII. has done, according to his legend, (authorized by Benedict XIII.,) and what has been maintained in virtue thereof, by his successors to this day, is from God." By the former, a man hath the name of the beast as a mark; by the latter, the number of his name. In a word, to have the name of the beast is, to acknowledge His papal Holiness; to have the number of his name is, to acknowledge the papal succession. The second beast will enforce the receiving this mark under the severest penalties. (John Wesley, Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible, Revelation 13:17)

Uh, what a surly "puppet" (sarcasm)

49 posted on 07/23/2002 12:07:38 PM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: A.J.Armitage
Nonsense.

convincing point

50 posted on 07/23/2002 12:09:53 PM PDT by Revelation 911
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