Christ Died For Me But Not for You: Did He Die for All or ONLY a Preselected Few?

Middletown Bible Church.org ^ | Middletown Bible Church

[RnMomof7]

Glad your happy :>)) *grin*

[Revelation 911]

BTW I have a tin ear so all songs are off key *grin*

Thats ok ma, "Come as you are" ;-D

I like this one too

Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling

Calling for you and for me

See, on your portals He's waiting and watching

Watching for you and for me

Come home, come home

Ye who are weary come home

Earnestly, tenderly, Jesus is calling

Calling O sinner come home

Why should we tarry when Jesus is pleading

Pleading for you and for me?

Why should we linger and heed not His mercies

Mercies for you and for me?

Come home, come home

Ye who are weary come home

Earnestly, tenderly, Jesus is calling

Calling O sinner come home

Time is now fleeting, the moments are passing

Passing from you and from me

Shadows are gathering, deathbeds are coming

Coming for you and for me.

Come home, come home

Ye who are weary come home

Earnestly, tenderly, Jesus is calling

Calling O sinner come home

Oh! for the wonderful love He has promised

Promised for you and for me

Tho' we have sinned He has mercy and pardon

Pardon for you and for me

Come home, come home

Ye who are weary come home

Earnestly, tenderly, Jesus is calling

Calling O sinner come home

[RnMomof7]

Funny that you would pick that rev..

I was raised RC.

We used to summer in Canada. We attended a very small RC chruch in the town. Now those were pre Vat. II days . The mass was in Latin..the only singing in our "home parish" was the Latin High Mass.

BUT in this little small town Canadian Catholic Church the folks like to sing..and they liked to sing in ENGLISH.....so they used a Protestant Hymnal.

I would stand on Sundays next to my 80 year old grandma and together we world sing that song

One day she told me that was her very favorite song

I realized I would not have my grandma much longer....

So you have given me a few memories and tears with that .....Thank You

For my Grandma

[whenigettime]

May I respectfully ask where is it in RnMom's post that says we are forced to be saved?

Thanks,
P

[whenigettime]

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Man now with his free will fully restored desires reconciliation with the father and seeks God

---

RnMomof7:
Would you please explain how it is you find that man has a fully restored free will from Colossians 2:13? I don't see the correlation.

Thanks!
P

[xzins]

The calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace means that God forces a certain group of preselected ones to be saved. If you look it up in the Westminister Confession, the bible of the calvinist movement, you will see that is true.

You will find it here: http://www.creeds.net/Westminster/wstmnstr.htm Are you familiar with the calvinist acronym: TULIP?

[Revelation 911]

that was nice ma - its one of my favorites - particularly hearing the older women hit some awesome harmonies. I bet your Gma really sang it with zeal!

#1 It has to be sung with no instrumentation

or

#2 an upright piano (ever so slightly out of tune)

[whenigettime]

I am familiar with TULIP.

I understand irresistible grace to be that which the Lord gives to those who have sought Him in Truth because His Spirit has made one reborn. The sinner who is regenerated has a change in masters, from the father of lies to the Creator of all that is and all that will ever be. If we are slaves to sin in our unregenerate state, then the ONLY way we could ever possibly make any sort of move towards righteousness is if the Lord frees us by His grace. If that is what forcing is, then so be it! :0)

Blessings!
P

[xzins]

irresistible grace is when God denies an individual the power to resist and drags him to the rebirth experience.

[whenigettime]

"irresistible grace is when God denies an individual the power to resist and drags him to the rebirth experience. "

---

Lemme guess, you really don't like the idea that salvation really has nothing to do with the individual sinner? Salvation by man's choice is salvation for man's happiness.

Maybe it's time for me to cool it.
Blessings,
P

[fortheDeclaration]

Since these things are true, it is obvious by deduction that "unconditional election" is an unscriptural position. Since there is another position, CONDITIONAL ELECTION, which more adequately aligns with scripture, it is certain that unconditional election, and with it the entire calvinist system, fails to commend itself as God's biblical truth.

Amen! It is the only system in which Scriptures do not have to be wrenched out of context (2Pet.3:16)

[fortheDeclaration]

ftD, we need to be in prayer about these threads that the Lord will bless truth whereever it's proclaimed. We should pray that His Word be the issue and not our debating skill or debating positions.

Amen and Amen!

[fortheDeclaration]

'We are not talking about that now are we. We are discussing the fact that Wesley was an anti reformer..he was in line with Rome not the reformation

We are?! How did that happen? Because he was against eternal security and for infant baptism?

The Presbyterians are for infant baptism as well.

This was a post I made regarding Arminius, but the same could be said for Wesley as well,

For my part when I reflect on the disputes which have produced such a lamentable division in Holland, I can hardly comprhend how men of genius could persuade themselves, that the dogmas of St. Augustine on Predestination and Grace are essential to the Reformation of Christianity; For there were many holy men, in the purest ages of the Church,who thought directly the reverse of the Father.

Cannot we renounce the monstrous and ridiculous doctrine of Purgatory, the Indulgances, the false Traditions of the Church of Rome, and the Tyranny of the Pope, without believing in Absolute Predestination, and Irresistable Grace?

What was thought of the hypothesis of the Bishop of Hippo, by all those respectable individuals who, struck with the absurdity and falsehood of the doctrines I have just enumerated, embraced the Reformation of the last century?

Did they give themselves the trouble of examining whether it was true or false? Those difficult and abstract questions occupied the sole attention of the divines, who took it into their heads to form a completed system of Divinity; and among them who chose that employment, there were many who have more carefully examined the Holy Scripture, and Ecclesiastical Antiquity,preferred the moderate sentiments of the Greek Fathers.

Even Calvin himself was not persuaded that his own notions respecting Predestination and Grace were essential to Religion; For he took the trouble of translating into French the Common Places of Melenchthon-who thought very differently from him on those controverted subjects, -and in the preface which he prefixed in that work, he bestows on the author all imaginable praise.

Could he conscientiously have acted thus, if he had been persuaded that the sentiments of Melanchthon sapped the foundations of the Reformation?

Many eminent Reformed Divines have openly maintained, that the doctrines of Universal Grace, of the Power to resist its operation and of Conditional Predestination, are in the number of those Articles which every one may believe without renouncing the principles of Religion.

Some learned Hollanders had boldy defended this doctrine, before Arminius became a minister at Amsterdam and a Professor at Leyden, and likewise before Gomarus had risen up against him.

Their writings are still extent; although it is true, that certain ministers who were too hasty, exerted themselves to bring those authors and their productions into dispute; But the States of Holland uniformly checked this impetous zeal.

The Professors of Leyden were allowed a perfect liberty of teaching conformably to the sentiments of Melanchthon; and when Arminius was called to that University, his opinions were generally known; For he had declared them in the Church of Amsterdam, from which he had received very honourable testimonals.

Gomarius, and many others of the same opinion, having entered into conversation with Arminius, made no scruple of acknowledging, immediately that the difference between the sentiments which existed between them, did not at all concern the foundations of the Reformation.

True it is, that Gomarus did not remain long on good terms with Arminius. Whether he had taken umbrage at the reputation of his new collegue, or the enemies of Arminius had found means to provoke the anger of Gomarus by some artful insinuation or other; he violently set his face against a man, some time before, he looked upon as orthodox.

(Le Vassor's History of the Reign of Louis XIII, cited in the Works of Arminius,(3Vol) Testimonies,p.liv)

[fortheDeclaration]

Actually in my opinion, if you are not a Bible Believing, Premillennial Dispensationalist, against infant baptism, for eternal security, going to a local church, belief in that the Lords supper is only a rememberance (Zwingli got that one right), belief in conditional election, full body immersion after believing in Christ as a figure of your salvation-then you are going straight to hell!

Now, none of that has to do with the Gospel of Christ which is believing in His death, burial and Resurrection and trusting in that alone for your salvation.

All the above that I had listed first is related on how one lives as a Christian, not whether one is one or not! Only the second view on faith is relevant to whether one is saved.

[fortheDeclaration]

look forward to standing beside you in the New Jerusalem laughing at how simpleit will seem to us then:)

Amen!

[fortheDeclaration]

2 Peter 3:5 is interesting as it shows us that people "desire" to be ignorant.

Well, Amen! That is what we have been saying all along!

unbelivers 'desire' to be ignorant, 'love' not the truth.

By the way I did not see Rom.3:23 listed in the 'all' list. Nor did I see Rom.5:18 listed either?

Strange oversight to overlook the comparsion of the sin of the first Adam with the grace of the Second.

Therefore, as by the the offense of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation (without exception),even so by the righteousness of one came the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Is that 'all' now switched to all 'without distinction', no, it cannot be because of 'even so' it remains all without exception

[xzins]

Therefore, as by the the offense of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation (without exception),even so by the righteousness of one came the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Is that 'all' now switched to all 'without distinction', no, it cannot be because of 'even so' it remains all without exception

Amen. Your usual insightful post.

[Revelation 911]

Hobbies: I don't have any. Now shut up, retards.

So Ma, I approached him privately, per your suggestion - now I wont hesistate to humiliate this young believer - My best friend has a downs syndrome child (thats a "retard" AJ)

I know for a fact many of the calvinists around here are for the most part reasonably pleasant & would never use the term - perhaps you could seek thier counsel and repent to one of the online pastors here.

I know as a calvinist, you say such things and remain "elect" however - what end is served by such hostility? - good or evil?

[Hank Kerchief]

Since you don't think the scope of the atonement is limited, either you believe its efficacy is limited, or you're a universalist.

There are really only three views. Two deny that God created moral beings, that is, beings capable of making rational choices. They are the Calvinists and the Universalists.

The third view believes like the Universalists, that God is able and willing to save everyone, and, like the Calvinists, that He provided for for the reconciliation of all men through the blood of Christ. So heaven is available to all, yet many will choose hell.

So you believe one of these things, God created the human race with the sole purpose of saving them all, (Universalist) God created the human race with the sole purpose of condemning the majority to eternal torment (Calvinist) or God create the human race with ability to choose to be saved or not to be saved by providing everything required for either choice.

I'm guessing you believe God created the human race for the sole purpose of condemning the majority of mankind to eternal torment. Is that right?

Hank

[Hank Kerchief]

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Your point, of course, is that dead men can do nothing. They cannot believe, they cannot repent, they cannot "take the medicine," they cannot even know they need the medicine.

The problem is, if men are born dead, meaning they can do nothing, they cannot sin either. The verse quoted says specifically, "being dead in your sins," not Adam's sins, not inherited sin, but your own sins." Of course, if they born dead (still-born), they wouldn't be able to sin.

Wonderful argument, except you've done that silly Calvinist mixing of metaphors again.

Hank