Posted on 07/23/2002 7:40:31 AM PDT by xzins
Amen
2. Classical Christians think you're predestined AFTER you become a believer. You are predestined to participate in God's heaven. Since God has always known the future, He ALWAYS knew that you would choose HIM. But just because He knew doesn't mean he FORCED your decision one way or another. He did, however, try very hard to INFLUENCE your decision through the power of his Holy Spirit (prevenient grace = preparing your heart grace.)
Amen.
LOL! You say that like a proud papa.
ftD, we need to be in prayer about these threads that the Lord will bless truth whereever it's proclaimed. We should pray that His Word be the issue and not our debating skill or debating positions.
We are discussing the fact that Wesley was an anti reformer..he was in line with Rome not the reformation
First, I say, "I have enough money for you to get your medicine." Then I say to your Big Brother, "Take WHENIGETTIME to the drug store with this money. It's enought to pay."
Before you leave, I pull Big Brother aside and say, "When you get to the front of the line hold the money up high so he's incapable of getting it, and don't you pay the price for him."
If you have a desperate illness, what does that say about that father?
Lets say the Big brother pays the price but the druggest demands the payment from the chid himself AFTER the brother has already paid for it?
Now that we have effectively disposed of "limited atonement" and "irresistible grace" as serious scriptural positions, what does that mean about the remainder of the calvinist construct?
It means that we have a system that thinks God fatalistically preselected some for heaven and some for hell prior to their ever being born. It thinks, accurately, that sinners stand in need of a Savior. It teaches that God has sent his Son to die for those sinners; i.e., everyone in the entire world. It says that humans have the power to resist and turn down the wooing of the Holy Spirit. It teaches that those who are saved will never be lost.
In that above system, there is a huge disconnect between unconditional election and unlimited atonement. We have God determining that he will send His gracious message to everyone, but he has made it impossible for many of them ever to respond to His offer. In this case, we make God into a deity confused about His own desires.
Additionally, there is a disconnect between unconditional election and resistible grace. We have a decree that demands that the preselected will absolutely be in heaven. These heaven-bound preselected, however, are able to resist God and be unbelievers. In that case, we have unbelievers in heaven.
Scripture proves that the "L" and the "I" in the calvinist system are wrong. Scripture affirms an unlimited atonement and a resistible grace.
Since these things are true, it is obvious by deduction that "unconditional election" is an unscriptural position. Since there is another position, CONDITIONAL ELECTION, which more adequately aligns with scripture, it is certain that unconditional election, and with it the entire calvinist system, fails to commend itself as God's biblical truth.
1. "He was in the world and the world came into being through Him, yet, the world did not know Him. they should feel guilty and in need of forgiveness.
2. "He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him." They should feel guilty and in need of forgiveness, too.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. The Correct Order of Salvation: a. 1st Comes Believing: "But to all who received Him, who believed in His Name, "Believing is not working: "Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. "
b. 2nd Comes Rebirth: He gave power to become children of God; who were born,
c. This rebirth is not of human origin "...who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem is the patient is DEAD he is not just "sick"
Now how does one make one alive that is dead?
Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Now how does one deal with the dead? The dead can not take the medicine that the brother paid for .He can not open his mouth to swallow it
Jesus told us
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Once regerated man can for the first time see His sin and the holiness of God .God then opens mans eyes and gives him the grace to repent
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; .
>font color=red> Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Man now with his free will fully restored desires reconciliation with the father and seeks God
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them];
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So now having studied what the word of God says let us once again look at the "order of salvation"
1)Man is spiritually dead in his sins
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
2) God regenerates us and gives us new life
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
3)By the grace of God we repent in the presence of a Holy God
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
4)We desire God with our whole being.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
5)We call on His name
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
6)We are justified
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
7) We are santified
Hbr 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1. We're sinners
2. We're forced to be saved.
3. We finally believe.
Do I have your position correct?
I believe:
1. We're sinners.
2. We're convicted by the Holy Spirit
3. We believe.
4. We're born again.
By your logic it is clear that the "Order of Salvation" is that you must first receive him and THEN God gives you the power to become the sons of God.
Thus receiving Christ is the pre-requisite to becoming born again, not the other way around. You are not "born again" until AFTER you receive Him.
1) We are dead in sin unable to hear the gospel or seek God
2) The grace of God gives us new life (We are born again)
3) We can see our sin for the first time, not in relation to other men but in relation to a Holy God..Gods grace leads us to repentance and we repent our sin
4)We desire God for the first time in our lives, we choose to give Him our lives .....we are saved by His grace
Salvation is of our God
Rn, you said it again. You said we're born again before we ever become believers. Do you have any idea how unbiblical that is.
1. Jn 3:16 - whosoever believeth....shall have everlasting life.
2. Jn 1:8 - received him/believed on him....gave power to become sons of God.
3. Unless you're born again, you're not allowed to be part of the Kingdom of God!
1. Believe
2. Born Again
3. Life in the KOG
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Often misread Steve ..it does not say you must be born again to ENTER the Kingdom of God..It says you can not even see it to desire it Unless you are born again
A blind and deaf man can not read or respond to the gospel Steve.
Amazing Grace How sweet the sound that saved a wrech like me
I once was lost ,but now am found
Was blind but now I see
There I have sung you to sleep
Good night xzins.....
rats, X gets all the chicks LOL
"This is the day, This is the Day that the Lord has made , that the Lord has made...Let us rejoice , Let us rejoice and be glad in it , and be glad in it" :>)
BTW I have a tin ear so all songs are off key *grin*
I've been mostly lurking on this thread, but I (of course) want to put in my two-cents worth. It's just going to have to wait until my lunch break. I need to get my kids ready for school.
:-)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.