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To: xzins
4. You say, God hardened Pharoah and that was his bidding. Is the "his" referring to God or Pharaoh? That is, are you saying "God hardened Pharaoh and that was God's bidding?" Or are you saying, "God hardened Pharaoh and that was Pharaoh's bidding?"

Well, in a sense, it was the will of God, because he did it. In another sense, it appears as though it was the will of Pharoah. In other words, Pharoah did not do what he did not want to do.

5. all those predestined will come and ultimately be glorified. You say this is the interpretation of the John 6 verses. Is that correct?

The Bible says that those that are predestinated will be called and eventually glorified. In addition, the Bible says that all those chosen by the Father will come to the Son. That is not my interpretation of these verses, it is what these verses say. If you disagree, please provide an alternative interpretation.

6. You cite Romans 9:20 to say, non-elect cannot make any claim of unrighteousness against God for making them a vessel of dishonor. How is that not the same as total inability?

I prefer to call it total depravity. All men are born dead in sin. Furthermore, by nature they do not seek after God as He is revealed in the Bible. This applies to ALL men, elect and non-elect. God so works in the heart of the elect to make them willing to embrace Jesus Christ. God does not so work in the heart of the non-elect. Hence, both can sit under the preaching of the gospel. One can be moved of God, the other will remain unmoved even though both hear the same message. God enables the one to receive and believe, God does nothing to enable the other. Hence they remain in their native state of rebellion against God.

It appears to me that you either believe that Christ came to save all men, which would make you a universalist or you are an Arminian, who believes that God's salvation depends somehow on the appropriate exercise of the will of men. Both would trample under foot the perfect sacrifice of Christ on calvary. If Christ died for all, there could be no punishment for sin. Therefore, no one could be judged for their unbelief and God must, lay aside His righteous requirements. If salvation depended on man's assent to it, then God is left wringing his hands after sacrificing His only son for the object of his salvation. Both are dangerous places to be. The problem to me is that you want to place man on an equal footing with God. Beware.

55 posted on 07/27/2002 11:26:30 AM PDT by Don'tMessWithTexas
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas; xzins
Well, in a sense, it was the will of God, because he did it. In another sense, it appears as though it was the will of Pharoah. In other words, Pharoah did not do what he did not want to do.

My 2 cents on this

All men are totally depraved. the only thing that keeps us all from being Jeffery Dalhmer and eating each other is gods restraing Grace . That grace keeps order in this fallen world and allows the elect to live with some peace and effective governmental order. All men benefit from Gods general grace

Scripture is clear that Pharoah kept hardening his own heart and God allowed it..then a point was reached where God had to give him over completely to his depravity so that His plan could be accomplished

God did not need to do an affirmative act to harden the heart of the Pharoah..He simply needed to remove what restraining grace he had previously give him

58 posted on 07/27/2002 11:40:06 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas
It appears to me that you either believe that Christ came to save all men, which would make you a universalist or you are an Arminian, who believes that God's salvation depends somehow on the appropriate exercise of the will of men. Both would trample under foot the perfect sacrifice of Christ on calvary. If Christ died for all, there could be no punishment for sin. Therefore, no one could be judged for their unbelief and God must, lay aside His righteous requirements. If salvation depended on man's assent to it, then God is left wringing his hands after sacrificing His only son for the object of his salvation. Both are dangerous places to be. The problem to me is that you want to place man on an equal footing with God. Beware.

This is what I have been trying to clarify for a while here I am confused as to what he believes

59 posted on 07/27/2002 11:42:08 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas; RnMomof7
If Christ died for all, there could be no punishment for sin...If salvation depended on man's assent to it, then God is left wringing His hands after sacrificing His only son for the object of his salvation.

Yes, the Arminians' God is truly frustrated; stymied by that old devil Will.

Bump for sound doctrine.

60 posted on 07/27/2002 11:44:49 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: Don'tMessWithTexas
4. Pharaoh hardened pharaoh's heart again and again. After his umpteenth time doing so, God "fixed" pharaoh's heart in it's hardened position. God's foreknowledge, of course, made it possible for God to predict Pharaoh's course of action. Romans 9 cannot be interpreted outside its cited Exodus context. (The same with Jacob/Esau, incidentally.)

5. John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

Calvinists argue that this passage teaches irresistible grace. The individual cannot refuse God's choice. Therefore, all those given to Christ will respond.

Arminians reply that "those given to me" in v. 37 are the same as those who "believe in him" in v. 40. In other words, when God foresees that some will believe, he gives them to Christ. See that in v. 45, those who have "heard and learned from the Father" are the ones who "come to me." It is written in the prophets, 'they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him COMES TO ME. This explains who are those who come to Him in v. 37 and they are the ones the Father gave to Christ. He FOREKNEW them.

6. You claim that those who are depraved cannot come to God for any reason. This is total inability and is an addition to total depravity that I reject because it is unbiblical. God can prepare a heart through conviction, enlightenment, conscience, etc., to receive. During that period of enlightenment sinners are able to receive. "As many as received him to them gave he power to become children of God.

This post has gotten far too long. We need to break it down into individuals points. I don't deal with long posts too often. The time required to write them and read them is difficult due to constant interruptions that I have.

61 posted on 07/27/2002 1:29:52 PM PDT by xzins
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