God failed?

[rwfromkansas]

You take a weak dog begging like a puppy dog. I take a God that is sovereign and ALWAYS ACCOMPLISHES HIS WILL.

And you are wrong about the necessary conclusion of Calvinism because while we are predestined, we ultimately still WANT to come to Christ regardless of what caused us to have that desire (the HS).

[rwfromkansas]

His ways are not your ways, Pistias.

It may be "fair" in our eyes to save everyone, but what would REALLY be fair...what we all deserve....is everyone going to hell. God chose not to be fair, but have mercy.

That is something to shout off the mountaintop, whether you want to or not.

[A.J.Armitage]

The fact that one is doomed is a travesty of cruelty, if they have no chance to avoid it.

How is it a travesty of cruelty that they can't avoid what they deserve?

How is making a creature you know is faulty and then allowing it to propogate so that you can make them all suffer eternally "just?"

But Adam wasn't faulty. "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." Adam chose on his own to follow Eve into sin, not because God forced him to. As with human sin today, it was God's will to allow it, but He did not cause it. Adam caused it.

The fact that a person is predisposed to evil doesn't make him less culpable. He is predisposed to it because he loves it, and the fact that he loves evil is exactly why he is damned.

[Pistias]

A creation that God in His wisdom gave a mind and a conscience that I might know Him.

[Pistias]

"fair" in our eyes to save everyone

Not save everyone; offer everyone the chance to be saved.

[Pistias]

they can't avoid what they deserve?

Because they can be offered the opportunity to avoid it, and are not.

[rwfromkansas]

That is impossible, as we are enslaved to sin.

[rwfromkansas]

"But God sovereignly decides not to control each and every event, and some things go contrary to what God intends and may not turn out completely as God desires. Hence, God takes risks in creating this sort of world." --- J. Sanders, The God Who Risks: A Theology of Providence, page 11

I guess God sometimes can't accomplish his desired will in Arminianism.

[Pistias]

I don't follow.

[sheltonmac]

"If Arminianism is true, God's existence is one of constant frustration. Failure after failure after failure."

Amen, brother! If God is not completely sovereign, how can he be God?

[A.J.Armitage]

Because they can be offered the opportunity to avoid it, and are not.

Two points:

1. If the opportunity to avoid just punishment can be offered, it's not cruelty but justice to withold the opportunity, since justice requires the punishment to be carried out. God owes us nothing.

2. As it happens, however, the opportunity is offered to everyone. It's just that no one would take it without the intervention of grace.

[rwfromkansas]

"Scripture never states that He was punished for us or that He paid the penalty for us. Scripture always states instead that he suffered for us." ---- J. K. Grider, A Wesleyan-Holiness Theology, page 329.

I guess Mr. Grider hasn't read the word "propitiation."

[Pistias]

F^%$ it, I'll just jump.

just punishment

How can one be justly punished for something one didn't do?

[Pistias]

no one would take it without the intervention of grace

If He'll help some, why not others? If they need help, how are they better than the ones damned, and thus why do they deserve salvation more than the damned?

[A.J.Armitage]

How can one be justly punished for something one didn't do?

I don't understand what you're asking.

If they need help, how are they better than the ones damned, and thus why do they deserve salvation more than the damned?

They aren't and they don't. Salvation is entirely unmerited.

[Pistias]

Salvation is entirely unmerited

And thus arbitrary?

And I was cheating on the first one--challenging the Original Sin is going too far.

[A.J.Armitage]

And thus arbitrary?

Yes.

To be clear: salvation is arbitrary, damnation is not.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I will remove him from my bump list.I have been removing names as I go

No, please leave me on your bump list. I do lurk. Thanks!!

[Pistias]

I find it hard to believe that the Logon is random.

[Matchett-PI]

"I'll take the God who is a failure every time."

All Arminians have a god in their own image. This is nothing new. :D