God failed?

[A.J.Armitage]

I went down to Boystown earlier today.

We were planning to go somewhere else, but we spent so much time getting sushi it was too late, so we went to The Alley instead. The Alley is, as the first line indicates, in Boystown, which is the Chicago gay district. There was parking in The Alley's alley, so we entered via the back door past stacks of free publications (gay and alternative newspapers and old copies of the Onion). The Alley is... different. It's basically a kind of all purpose store for punks, goths, and other people who're unique, just like everyone else they hang out with. It's got odd decorations, clothes, and so on.

One of the T-shirts had a picture of Anton LeVay, with the motto: GOD FAILED.

The shirt wasn't very unusual there; a large proportion of them were blasphemous. But that shirt, I think, is interesting. (Hence this post.)

I'd bet the person who made it never has never encountered anything other than Arminianism. And viewing things from the perspective of the Arminian construct, what other conclusion could there be?

In Arminianism, God had everything great until, whoops, the top angel started getting uppity and started a civil war in Heaven, which, presumably, God didn't want.

So then God creates two perfect people, but can't stop them from being corrupted by the former top angel. So, in spite of the fact that God doesn't want this to be the case, all their decendents turn out bad.

So in a last ditch effort, God personally becomes one and dies to save them all. But He doesn't save them all. He can't even manage to save most of them. His death was mostly just wasted. At the end, He'll be FORCED to throw them in the lake of fire. Assuming, of course, that Someone with His track record can manage to pull off something like making it all happen like it says in the book.

If you believe all that, how could God not be called a failure? If Arminianism is true, God's existence is one of constant frustration. Failure after failure after failure.

That's not my God, and it isn't the God of the Bible.

[Pistias]

Hm. Interesting...never thought of that. If God didn't fail, then it was His intention to create beings that would deny Him?

[A.J.Armitage]

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

[Pistias]

Power for certain. And right, no doubt.

And yet, does it not seem cruel to create a being destined for eternal torment without chance of salvation? Is it cruel for God?

[ultima ratio]

The Adam and Eve story was a dry- run for Hebrew mystics who contemplated the problem of evil. Read the Book of Job. The Voice from the Whirlwind says to Job who had been complaining about his unjust treatment by God: "Am I wrong because you are right?" In other words, as Job himself realizes, he has "tried to understand the Unknowable and tried to grasp the Infinite". In the end he is struck silent with awe.

In one amazing passage God describes the violent world he has created, the lion cubs with their muzzles red with the blood from some carcass. It reminded me of Blake's poem, "Tiger, Tiger" in which he asks, "Did He who made the lamb make thee?" The poem is full of wonderful fierce dynamic energy. And that is the point: God is beyond human morality. His ways are not our ways.

[whipitgood]

God created creatures who have free will. We are free to choose whether we love Him who created us or not. A divine principle of love is that it must be freely chosen. Love is not love if "no" is not an option. Coerced love is an oxymoron.

[Hank Kerchief]

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Pot's don't ask questions, or make choices. Are you a pot?

Hank

[A.J.Armitage]

But it's not as if humans sin through some sort of automatic movement, like a robot. People choose sin, and choose to reject God, because that's what they want, which is why we're guilty, and why the lost will be damned.

[HumanaeVitae]

When I lived in Chicago I remember a tee shirt I saw in a window of one of the many oddities shops in the Wrigleyville area. It was pretty straightforward: "SMOKE CRACK AND WORSHIP SATAN", it instructed in large red letters on (of course) black cotton. Shock shirts are nothing new. Nor are the anti-God arguments of the people who wear them.

As for the rest, it's too nice a weekend to get into hairy theodicy questions.

[A.J.Armitage]

So you think God is trying and failing to save everyone?

[A.J.Armitage]

Interesting. You're trying to refute what I said.

Does the word "hath" sound like something I'd ordinarily say?

[A.J.Armitage]

Shock shirts are nothing new. Nor are the anti-God arguments of the people who wear them.

I didn't think it was new. Like I said, the shirt was pretty typical there. I see a few like that at my job.

I just thought it would make for a good theological riff.

[HumanaeVitae]

One of the reasons I never lived in the city itself is stuff like this.

Anyway, cheers.

[A.J.Armitage]

Would you please bump it to the usual suspects?

[A.J.Armitage]

BTW, OP told me in a freepmail he's been too busy lately to participate on the Religion threads, since they take too much time and mental energy (theology being the queen of the sciences and all).

[A.J.Armitage]

Actually, my job isn't even close to the city. Well, close in the sense of Chicagoland. I guess people's weights, ages, and months of birth for a company that rents space in Great America.

And to answer the inevitable question: yes, I have offended people.

[JesseShurun]

Hank must be a teacher of some kind and does not want to tolerate fools. Well I am the biggest fool around and I understand myself to be a clay pot in the imagery used in the bible. Once I held water but then it turned into wine. Once I found a loaf and fish in there. I gave it to a wayfarer that I met. He wasn't sure if he had a soul or not. I do what I can.

[ponyespresso]

So in a last ditch effort, God personally becomes one and dies to save them all. But He doesn't save them all. He can't even manage to save most of them. His death was mostly just wasted. At the end, He'll be FORCED to throw them in the lake of fire. Assuming, of course, that Someone with His track record can manage to pull off something like making it all happen like it says in the book.

There is so much wrong with this that I don't know where to start. So, I will start by quoting someone else:

"It was to the Cross that all the Scriptures looked forward. The Cross was not forced on God; it was not an emergency measure when all else had failed and the scheme of things had gone wrong. It was part of the plan of God, for the Cross is the one place on earth, where in a moment of time, we see the eternal love of God." William Barclay, The Gospel of Luke, Edinburgh, p. 312.

To suggest that the incarnation, life, crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ as a "last ditch effort" by some hopeless, bumbling God is something that no reasonable Christian, whatever his or her learning, would ever even imagine. It is a low-blow attempt to provoke at best; it certainly does not, in any way, shape or form, come close to what any Christian, regardless of their theological background, would teach. This, however, would:

"the Son of God, the Word of God made flesh, kneels in the garden of Gethsemane. He wrestles in prayer. His sweat falls like great drops of blood. He cries out in agony: 'Not my will, but thine be done.' That is what it costs God to deal with man's sin. To create the heavens and the earth costs Him no labour, no anguish; to take away the sin of the world costs Him His own life-blood." Lesslie Newbigin, Sin and Salvation, p. 32.

Your post goes way beyond anything like setting up a straw man. You've seemed to set up a straw village, the only thing you're missing is the idiot. Oh wait, never mind.

[Pistias]

it's not as if humans sin through some sort of automatic movement, like a robot

Yes and no--I'd say that given our Fallen state, sin is in a fundamental way part of our being--i.e., the id.

People choose sin

I'm out of my depth, but let me see if I get it straight. God creates man with all of his faculties; those faculties are what resists the temptation to sin (or is it a unique Grace?); thus, God creates some men with the faculties that will resist sin and thus return to God, and some without...or do all have the ability to return, and some will not?

[A.J.Armitage]

To suggest that the incarnation, life, crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ as a "last ditch effort" by some hopeless, bumbling God is something that no reasonable Christian, whatever his or her learning, would ever even imagine.

It is, however, the necessary conclusion of Arminianism. That they themselves don't go there is only the result of inconsistency. Actually, some do. They're called open theists.

And even if, through an internal block keeping them from blasphemy, they don't follow their beliefs through to their logical end, unbelievers will. What answer can they give to someone who sees the god they're teaching and draws the obvious conclusion that they worship a cosmic failure?