Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

[xzins]

Can God create a rock he can't pick up?

The most difficult question in the bible for me is this: Was the script for everyone and everything pre-planned, pre-written so that the screenwriter never allowed for any deviation or change to the script, such that absolutely nothing could ever be changed?"

I value honorable Christians who answer yes, who answer no, and who have an answer somewhere in between. In my family, I have sincere family members who are Christians on either side of that question.

Personally, I don't think the script is pre-written so it could never be changed.

[SoothingDave]

Didja ever figure that the fatalism contributed to the end result? Oh, that's right. God decides everything, everything that happens is His fault.

Can you name one thing that God could not have changed?

No, I can't. I also can't see how your response relates to my statements.

Do you ever pray for sick people?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Dave are you saying in your soothing way that confusion doesn't reign in the catholic church? What about the polls I have read lately about the number of catholic's who do NOT believe in the "real presense"

In the Catholic case there are teachings, like the Real Presence, that are written down and known by those in the know to be authentic Catholic teachings.

Then there are people who, for a variety of reasons, are ignorant of the true teaching.

So, yes, this is a form of confusion. But is it clear which teaching is the correct one? Yes. Read the Catechism.

Now contrast that with the free-wheeling world of Sola Scriptura Christianity. Your dear husband and Woody have had a disagreement about the meaning of a Scripture passage. Now to draw a parallel, which one is the "pope" and which one is the ignorant person?

Is Mack right and Woody is ignorant? Or is Woody right and Mack ignorant? Is it clear which teaching is the "correct" one?

No. Confusion reigns.

SD

[SoothingDave]

The most difficult question in the bible for me is this: Was the script for everyone and everything pre-planned, pre-written so that the screenwriter never allowed for any deviation or change to the script, such that absolutely nothing could ever be changed?"

You have framed the question well. Good job.

How about this for an answer? This question, about which endless bickering ensues, is framed from our point of view, not from that of God's. The answer is not one or the other, but a curious and mystical mixture of both.

Regardless, we do not have a copy of the script, so we can not know if our present actions are rehearsed or ad lib. They certainly feel ad lib, and there are ample warnings about the consequences of our decisions. We can not turn to the Cartoonist, like Jessica Rabbit, and say "I'm not really bad, I'm just drawn that way."

SD

[xzins]

We can not turn to the Cartoonist, like Jessica Rabbit, and say "I'm not really bad, I'm just drawn that way."

That is a great line. Thanks. Is it in "Roger Rabbit?"

[SoothingDave]

Is it in "Roger Rabbit?"

You betcha.

SD

[RnMomof7]

You want to take a shot at the questions Mack? Was no one saved at the cross? Did God fail?

[RnMomof7]

All the elect wil choose Cube..every one of them

[RnMomof7]

Let me throw down the gauntlet. Show us all how any analysis of the Scriptures that has been presented by those of us this group would classify as "Calvinists" has violated the immediate context of any of the passages or the broad context of Scripture.

Way to go RF..How bout it mack?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I know you addressed this to Mack, but I'm going to respond:)

Everyone who is saved is saved by what Jesus did on the cross. That is where all sins can be forgiven, because that is where the price was paid for them.

Now I have answered, what is the significance of the question?

Becky

[drstevej]

Press the smilie face, Cube.

[rising tide]

I don't think Steve wants the LDS to read this thread. The study is an embarisment to the conservative "born again" protestants.

[RnMomof7]

I wrote Arminians believe that man is not quite dead from the fall and has enough spiritual life to desire God and choose Christ. They would believe he is not born again (regenerated ) UNTIL he is saved

You wroteActually we believe that man is dead from the fall. We believe not that he has enough spiritual life left to desire God, but that the Lord enlivens him to see the choice before him

I see DEAD is not Dead..So how did I misstate that? Cause you position is just plain silly...Was Lazaresus only a 'little dead"? What is a "little "dead

[RnMomof7]

Can God create a rock he can't pick up?

So then everyone IS saved right Becky? God desired and predestined everyone to be saved so every one IS saved. Are you a Univeralist?

[xzins]

I don't understand your question.

You said that I believe man is not dead in his sins. However, I do believe man is dead in his sins.

Now, are you going to tell me what I believe? I just told you what I believe.

Now, what part of man is dead? It clearly isn't his body that we are talking about. What part are we talking about?

[Elsie]

2 Peter 3:9: God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

BUT: "any" or "all" of what? Dogs? Chickens? There must be an antecedent to the pronouns.

In 3:3-7, Peter is discussing "them" (i.e. unbelievers). In verse 8 he addresses the "beloved." The beloved are those to whom the epistle is addressed, "those who have obtained a like precious faith with us" (1:1). Thus, God is not will willing that any of the BELOVED should perish. And, since God gets everything He wants, this verse becomes a proof-text for eternal security. Moreover, the context of this passage is when the end of the world will come (3:7,10). Peter is teaching that God will wait until "all" have a chance to repent. If "all" refers to everyone who has lived or will live, then the world would never end as new people are being born all the time! But if the reference is to all of God’s people, then the world will end when the last of the elect (a large but finite number) has repented and believed.

---

But... aren't some of the 'elect' ALSO 'being born all the time!' ??

NIV 2 Peter 1:10-11
 10.  Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
 11.  and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

NIV 2 Peter 3:9
 9.  The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

Looks like he's warning these 'brothers' that their 'election' AIN'T 'eternally secure' here.

[RnMomof7]

IF God wanted too, do you think He could have given us freewill to choose? Do you think that if He gave everyone free choice He could have foreknew who would accept and who would reject, then use that knowledge to forward His plans? Would that be possible for a sovereign God?

So then these are not Gods plans . God waited to see how man would act and how man would choose THEN he made HIS plans? Who is God in this ?

Becky every man does have free will...but man will never will to choose God..Read Romans

[maestro]

Bottom Line MUST be:

"So then 'FAITH' cometh by hearing, and hearing 'BY' The WORD of GOD."

(Romans 10:17)

[malakhi]

Good Scripture, but says nothing about those actions saving anyone:)

OK, I'll concede the literal point! But I still maintain that the witness of the good works of Christians is as important a part of evangelizing as is the preaching that they do.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You did not aswer the question, and you are mischaracterizing what I am saying.

Becky