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Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives
Los Angeles Times
| Published Sep 28, 2002
| William Lobdell
Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: RnMomof7; CCWoody
Well, might as well dive in with both feet!! I believe God "predestined" everybody.
Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate..."
Psalm 139:14-16 "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
So, being the first to admit I am not a Bible scholar, does that make me a literalist, a universalist, a Calvinist, a reformist, or can I just call myself a Christian? :) (No disrespect intended to any doctinal warriors!)
To: computerjunkie; RnMomof7
My question (most likely a stupid question, but my question nonetheless): So if the end result is the same (assurance of salvation and where we will spend eternity), what difference does the "order of salvation" make? (Why do I have the sneaking hunch I'm gonna be sorry I asked that??!!) :)
You ask a legitimate question. The answer is important because it helps us truly understand the grace and love of God and our truly desperate need. 1 Cor 2:14 shows us the extent of the radical depravity we had as natural men,
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Note the inability to understand. This leads us to ask, "how can a man in such a state understand God's message concerning his radical depravity and have a change of mind ( = repentance) to think about his condition the same way God does. The answer is he needs a heart transplant (see Ezek 36:26) The Bible calls this regeneration. This regeneration permits us to confess "Jesus is Lord." Does this make sense?
To: CCWoody
Well, just so I can amuse those who boast about acting like a spiritual Tare. Please carry on! Where exactly was I boasting? About being a "tare," as you say?
And if, as you say, Calvinism is the true Gospel and never brings in any tares, how is it that Jesus even bothered with the parable you cite? Seems to me he was describing the way things are in His Church, the good and bad mingle together.
Wouldn't God have wanted it to be this way? Didn't He make it this way?
SD
To: computerjunkie
So, being the first to admit I am not a Bible scholar, does that make me a literalist, a universalist, a Calvinist, a reformist, or can I just call myself a Christian? :) (No disrespect intended to any doctinal warriors!)
It might make you a saint who delights to glory in your Maker. Do you also believe that God works all things after the counsel of His will and do you believe that His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and do you believe that we are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation?
Just some cream puff gospel questions! (P.S. BigMack, before you call this post circular or spin or anything, you might want to check to see if I'm quoting the Bible or not.)
124
posted on
09/30/2002 7:29:34 PM PDT
by
CCWoody
To: don-o
To: computerjunkie
Well, might as well dive in with both feet!! I believe God "predestined" everybody.
So God failed?
To: SoothingDave
Where exactly was I boasting? About being a "tare," as you say?
When you boasted that you get pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others. That is the definition of schadenfreude. It is a malicious pleasure and the kind of pleasure that only a spiritual Tare would get.
And if, as you say, Calvinism is the true Gospel and never brings in any tares, how is it that Jesus even bothered with the parable you cite?
Actually the only thing I cited about this was the fact that Jesus preached about things that specifically drove people away. He certainly didn't sow Tares into His church. I'm not sure where you are going with this question. Plus, Matthew 13 specifically talks about the enemy sowing Tares.
Seems to me he was describing the way things are in His Church, the good and bad mingle together.
Sure, Jesus sows the sons of the kingdom and Satan sows the Tares. What should bother you is the fact that the servants know who the Tares are but are under specific instructions from the Lord to leave them be cause He intends to burn them.
Oh, BTW, Jesus is not describing the way things are in His church, but the way things are in His kingdom. You Roman Catholics are always getting that confused.
127
posted on
09/30/2002 7:53:32 PM PDT
by
CCWoody
To: RochesterFan
Yes, it does. I honestly never thought about the "words" involved, the process, and the exact order in which it happens. I know that I am a sinner, I know that I need a Savior. I know that God sent His only Son, Jesus, to die on the cross for my sins. I know that He rose again on the third day and now resides in heaven with the Father, and that the Holy Spirit resides in me. I know that because I believe those
facts, I am saved to eternal life with Jesus Christ!!!
I always thought regeneration, repentance and conversion all happened at the same glorious time!! But I was saved when I was 8 years old...most likely didn't understand things like "natural man", "radical depravity", and heart transplants!! I just knew I was a sinner who needed a Savior, Jesus was that Savior, and I confessed that "He is Lord"!
Pretty simple, when you get right down to it! However, now that I know what REALLY happened to me way back then, it's even MORE miraculous!!
To: RnMomof7
Hey, if junkie says he believes that God predestined everybody, then he is essentially saying that he believes in absolute double predestination. I can't fault him for that.
129
posted on
09/30/2002 7:57:45 PM PDT
by
CCWoody
To: computerjunkie
However, now that I know what REALLY happened to me way back then, it's even MORE miraculous!!How right you are! Isn't God awesome!
To: CCWoody
Oh, BTW, Jesus is not describing the way things are in His church, but the way things are in His kingdom. You Roman Catholics are always getting that confused.
Last time I looked the church was in the "kingdom"
To: RnMomof7
So God failed? Not in the least! I quote again:
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
He provided the way. We have a choice.
To: CCWoody
Good. Then can you fault "him" for being a "her"? :)
To: computerjunkie
I know that I am a sinner, I know that I need a Savior. I know that God sent His only Son, Jesus, to die on the cross for my sins. I know that He rose again on the third day and now resides in heaven with the Father, and that the Holy Spirit resides in me. I know that because I believe those facts, I am saved to eternal life with Jesus Christ!!! The question CJ is HOW you know those things and your neighbor does not??
The doc explains the speed at which these events (regeneration/ conversion ) happen as a bullet going through a board..which came first ..the bullet or the whole it passes through ??
The order IS important because it is about the sovereignity of God
To: computerjunkie
Let me clarify that..."him"/"her" refers to computerjunkie...not God!!
To: computerjunkie
CJ read 2 Peter in context ..who is he talking to?
2Peter 3:9: God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
BUT: "any" or "all" of what? Dogs? Chickens? There must be an antecedent to the pronouns. In 3:3-7, Peter is discussing "them" (i.e. unbelievers). In verse 8 he addresses the "beloved." The beloved are those to whom the epistle is addressed, "those who have obtained a like precious faith with us" (1:1). Thus, God is not will willing that any of the BELOVED should perish. And, since God gets everything He wants, this verse becomes a proof-text for eternal security. Moreover, the context of this passage is when the end of the world will come (3:7,10). Peter is teaching that God will wait until "all" have a chance to repent. If "all" refers to everyone who has lived or will live, then the world would never end as new people are being born all the time! But if the reference is to all of God’s people, then the world will end when the last of the elect (a large but finite number) has repented and believed.
To: computerjunkie
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
We all agree on this CJ..the question is who WILL believe? Why will some believe and not others?
To: RnMomof7
Last time I looked the church was in the "kingdom"
Hmmm!
Mat 13:24 The kingom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field....
Mat 13:38 The field is the world.
So, I can agree with you that the TRUE church is
in the kingdom, no sweat. Jesus, of course, only mentioned the church 3 times, if I can remember; He talked about the kingdom over 100 times. But I cannot agree if you say that the church is the kingdom.
Good nite, Mary Ann; I gotta go read to my wife now....
138
posted on
09/30/2002 8:14:35 PM PDT
by
CCWoody
To: computerjunkie
When Peter says "any", one must ask "any what?" Context is critical here. Look closely at 2 Pet 1:1 "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" and 2 Pet 3:1. "This is now, beloved, ..." Peter is clearly addressing believers. Peter is saying that God is waiting for all believers (i.e. the last one) before returning. To conclude that Peter means "any human" means that God is no longer sovereign over His creation. The rest of the Scriptures are loaded with clear statements that such is not the case. I will happily supply multiple examples of such clear statements in the Scriptures if they will help you...
To: computerjunkie
You are my friend and I hesitate to ask a confrontive question ..but here goes...
He provided the way. We have a choice
Was anyone saved at the cross?Is it possible that Jesus might have died in vain?
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