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How did Jesus dispel that notion?

"Repent and believe, and you will be saved."

Were the Jews under some pagan notion of "fate"?

No. The Jews were not pagans (in general.)

Explain.

FATE, DESTINY, LOT, PORTION, DOOM mean a predetermined state or end. FATE implies an inevitable and usually an adverse outcome. LOT and PORTION imply a distribution by fate or destiny, LOT suggesting blind chance.

In other words, a man's lot was decided by fate or chance, and he was powerless to effect his life's outcome.

Calvin's "predestination" is just a rehashing of this pagan notion man's lot was decided by fate or chance, a notion still common to pagan religions like Hinduism.

The debate between God's Grace and our Free Will has gone on from day one, with no satisfactory agreement, no final word. Calvin's word sure as Hades is not The Final Word.

Why?

Because it is, afterall, a "Mystery" that will never be fully understood by man, nor fully explained by man's finite intellect and language.

That is why I see as only a worldly FOOL those men who proclaim to have definitively stated "The Final Word" on the issue of Grace vs Free Will. And that is why I see it as earthly foolishness this obsession over one failable man's explanation of the issue. Calvin most certainly was NOT granted some extraordinary grace and infallibility to be the sole arbiter in the debate.

As OrthodoxPresbyterian has eloquently pointed out, my own Church has differing explanations of the interaction between Grace and Free Will.

Why?

Because it is an infinitely faceted MYSTERY and our finite intellect and limited language is only able to express finite glimpes of these infinite facets of this Divine Mystery.

But to devolve the whole issue backwards to pagan fatalism is below us, and, as I said earlier, downright sinister, for the reasons Ultima Ratio outlined.

And the reasons I outlined here are the reasons I gave up this debate with OrthodoxPresbyterian long ago.

Only a fool thinks they have The Definitive Last Word in this debate.

Only a fool thinks they have The Definitive Last Word in this debate.

In that case, I'll give you the last word. :-)

From a practical standpoint, I've always found this debate *sort of* similar to counting angels on the head of a pin (or however the saying goes). Here's why:

Ultimately, the ends will be the same. A Catholic must still act according to God's will (that is, following Jesus), remain in a state of Grace, to make it to Heaven. A Protestant (Calvinist, in this case), must also act according to God's will, remain in a state of Grace, to make it to Heaven -- he just believes that the reason he's acting that way is because he was pre-destined to. Whatever the CAUSE of the actions -- either because the individual freely accepts God's Grace freely given, or because the individual was pre-destined to be among the elect -- the end result is still the same.

FATE, DESTINY, LOT, PORTION, DOOM mean a predetermined state or end. FATE implies an inevitable and usually an adverse outcome. LOT and PORTION imply a distribution by fate or destiny, LOT suggesting blind chance. In other words, a man's lot was decided by fate or chance, and he was powerless to effect his life's outcome.

Hmmm.

ACTS 1
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Both Matthias and Joseph Barsabas showed up to the convocation, willing to be called Apostles. And indeed, it is God Alone who makes His Saints Willing to do good works.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

But who should become the Twelfth Apostle? Matthias, or Justus?

Matthias, of course. Why? Because God hath willed, by the casting of the Lot.

The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

"In other words, a man's lot was decided by fate or chance, and he was powerless to effect his life's outcome". In other words, Matthias accession to the Apostolic Office was decided by fate or chance (i.e., the DECISION OF GOD)... and once the Lot was Cast, the Lost was Cast.

Let not Matthias dispute the Casting of the Lot.
Let not Justus dispute the Casting of the Lot.

Both were Willing... but God hath Decided.

It is curious to see a professed Christian dispute the "casting of lots", in which "a man's lot was decided by fate or chance, and he was powerless to effect his life's outcome"... Matthias and Justus did not "rig" the Casting of Lots, Polycarp. They were powerless to affect the outcome -- only God Alone could decide.

And God Alone did decide.

Why did the Apostles trust the Casting of Lots to decide so serious a matter as the Apostolic Office, Polycarp?

Because they TRULY believed in Absolute Predestination, that's why.

SIDE NOTE -- Polycarp, if you were truly a hard-core Roman Thomist, who believes that God's Absolute Predestination is intended and designed for the benefit of the Roman Mother Catholic Church (from Apostle Matthias to the Present Day), we'd still have a pretty serious Institutional disagreement between us... whether the "Church of Jesus" and the "Church of Rome" are necessarily synonymous.

But as long as you scoff at the Choice by Lot of the Apostle Matthias, you're not really a Predestinarian Roman Thomist at all... you're just another Jesuit-Molinist, of which we have quite enough among the Arminian Protestants on our side of the Table.

Calvin's "predestination" is just a rehashing of this pagan notion man's lot was decided by fate or chance, a notion still common to pagan religions like Hinduism. The debate between God's Grace and our Free Will has gone on from day one, with no satisfactory agreement, no final word. Calvin's word sure as Hades is not The Final Word. Why? Because it is, afterall, a "Mystery" that will never be fully understood by man, nor fully explained by man's finite intellect and language.

Mystery, MYSTERY, everywhere a MYSTERY... and not a SINGLE Scripture Reference to support that Proposition.

But where the idea of "Mystery" comes in... brother, I confess that is over my head.
Why are you calling Absolute Predestination a "Mystery"? Jesus DIDN'T. To Him, the Doctrine of Absolute Predestination was ABSOLUTELY EXPRESS AND CLEAR.

Please, I beg you... find me ONE -- just ONE citation in Scripture -- in which Jesus called Absolute Predestination a "Mystery".

It is true that I recognize... "As OrthodoxPresbyterian has eloquently pointed out, my own (Roman) Church has differing explanations of the interaction between Grace and Free Will". But I don't think you understand my opinion of the Roman Church. I still think -- I still hope, I still believe -- that she has the truth within her. Perhaps I am an "optimstic protestant" (would I even bother with Rome, if I was some Modernist Religious Anarchist, who denies the 2000 year history of the Church of Christ?) But I say with Calvin... Rome compromises, and she tolerates error, and she enforces her Compromises and Errors as Papal Diktats, and she refuses to defend the Truth within her Augustinian and Thomist ranks.

I have nothing. Men fight for me, because if they do not, I throw them off my land and I starve their wives and their children. Those men who bled the ground red at Falkirk, they fought for William Wallace, and he fights for something that I've never had. And I took it from him when I betrayed him and I saw it in his face on the battlefield, and it's tearing me apart. ~~ (Robert the Bruce, "Braveheart")

But I say to you again... you say, "Predestination is a Mystery".

Jesus NEVER called Absolute Predestination a "Mystery". Golly, gee whillikers -- have you, perhaps, ascertained a Christian Mystery which somehow escaped His divine attention? Respectfully, my Brother** -- Why are you so Smart, and why was He was so Stupid?

Tell you what... let's get down to a "Jesus Challenge".

I will Justify the Five Points of Calvinism based solely upon the Words of Jesus Himself. And Jesus Christ will be my Witness -- because I am gonna step up to the plate.
If you believe that Absolute Predestination is a "Mystery" -- Then let Jesus Christ be YOUR witness, and YOU step up to the plate.

Jesus is Lord. He is the Only Lord. "They were tarred and burned and they were fed to the lions for the simple, little confession that Jesus is Lord. It is the backbone of the Christian confession. It is the beginning of the Christian life and it will come to a test every now in then in church history." And Jesus hath said:

TOTAL DEPRAVITY
John 3: 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
John 6: 44 -- No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 15: 16, 19 -- You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.... If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

LIMITED REDEMPTION
Matthew 11: 27 -- All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
John 5: 21 -- For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
John 8: 42 - 43, 47 -- Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.
John 10: 14 - 15, 24 - 26 -- I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.... The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 12: 37 - 40 -- But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, SO THAT they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their hearts, And be converted and I heal them.
John 17: 1 - 2,6, 9 -- Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.... I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.... I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE
John 6: 37 -- All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
John 10: 4 - 5, 8 -- When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.... All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.

PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS
John 5: 24 -- Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6: 38 - 40 -- For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
John 10: 27 - 30 -- My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.

Alrighty, then... we have direct and explicit endorsement of ALL FIVE of the five Classical Points of Calvinism, from the mouth of Jesus Himself.

I've spotted you Five Points... I only ask One in Return.

I ask you... give me EVEN ONE Reference in all of Scripture in which Jesus Christ calls Absolute Predestination a "Mystery".

Shucks, I'll even open the discussion with Mark 4:11-12:

Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

If you wanna call Absolute Predestination a "Mystery", let's debate Mark 4:11-12. This is THE ONLY reference in all of Scripture in which Jesus Christ (even indirectly) called Predestination a "Mystery" -- That seeing they may see, and NOT perceive; and hearing they may hear, and NOT understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

If this is the ONLY reference in all the Words of Jesus to the idea of "Predestination being a Mystery", then Augustine just wiped the floor with all his opponents.
But of course, this IS the ONLY (even indirect) reference in all the Words of Jesus to the idea of "Predestination being a Mystery", and so Augustine just did wipe the floor with all his opponents.

Why are you calling Absolute Predestination a "Mystery"? Jesus DIDN'T. To Him, the Doctrine of Absolute Predestination was ABSOLUTELY EXPRESS AND CLEAR.

You wanna talk to me about MYSTERY??

Well then, for the Love of God's Church -- SHOW ME THE MONEY. Show me this "Mystery". What's so hard to understand? Jesus never said it was hard to understand. Gosh, He said it was QUITE CLEAR.

T John 3: 19 -- And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
U John 6: 44 -- No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
L John 5: 21 -- For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
I John 6: 37 -- All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
P John 5: 24 -- Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

That's the Five Points of Calvinism, right down the line.
Gimme a T. Gimme a U. Gimme an L. Gimme an I. Gimme a P. What does it spell? How about, "The express and quite specific Teachings of Jesus Christ".

So that's the Five Points of Calvinism, directly attested by the express Words of Jesus. Where does this Idea of Biblical Predestination being a "mystery" come into play, aside from the Mark 4:11-12 sense of being "that which is Given to the Elect, and NOT unto others"?

So here's what it comes down to:

POLYCARP -- until you tell me what you mean by the term "MYSTERY", I will never admit any definition but the BIBLICAL definition which was EXPRESSLY given by Jesus Christ in Mark 4:11-12 -- "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."
Ergo, the Biblical Term "MYSTERY" is a deliberate and PREDETERMINED-BY-GOD division between God's Elect and God's Reprobate, determined by God's Sole Decision to ENLIGHTEN some and DENY ENLIGHTENMENT to others, exactly as Mark 4:11-12 declares.

And you know what?

The Definition of Jesus, is the Definition of the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ. Against which the Bishop of Rome CAN NOT dispute, and retain Legitimacy.

The Magisterium of the First Century (i.e., "New Testament Scripture") is the Magisterium of the Church. If the Roman Church (which is but ONE branch) has departed... then she has departed.

It is NO MORE DIFFICULT to understand the First Century Magisterium (i.e., "New Testament Scripture"), then it is "difficult" to understand any latter Magisterial Teaching.

But the Latter-Century Magisterium MAY NOT contradict the First Century Magisterium. The Deposit of Faith admits of Development, but not of change.

And so then... who is the Bishop of Rome, one patriarch among five, to call the First-Century Doctrine of Absolute Predestination a "Mystery"?? OUR LORD JESUS DIDN'T.

The Church of Rome today DENIES the "High Priestly" Gethsemane Prayer of John 17. Yes, I know, it is your theological burden to rationalize it within the Roman Construct... but lay all that aside, and just be Theologically Honest as Our Lord sweats blood upon the ground...

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me".

Make up any excuses you like.

Imagine any theological justifications you can possibly contrive.

At the end of the day, that is a Calvinist Prayer. Everything else is really just a spin-doctor's best-efforts to avoid the Fact that Our Lord prayed like a Calvinist.

It sweats, it bleeds, it is particular and specific... and it is absolutely guaranteed to succeed.

For God hath so already Willed.

We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done our Duty.

Re: #216

Respectfully, my Brother** -- Why are you so Smart, and why was He was so Stupid?

As a Calvinist, I reserve the Right to externally judge a Christian by his Outward Works.

Do I think that Good Works save? God Forbid. As a Convinced Protestant, I believe that Faith Alone Saves.

However, as an Orthodox Calvinist, I believe that Good Works are an Outward Evidence of Inward Regeneration. It seems these days, that I am surrounded by "Faith Alone" so-called-protestant Christians who think Laura Bush is a "Good Woman".

Oh, sure, she's a "good woman". Compared to what, Hilary Clinton? She's a "good woman", aside from the fact that she believes it is morally permissible to grind unborn chidren into garden mulch.

Is she a "nice person", perhaps "better than the average"? Well, sure, she's better than average. I can't deny that. If you're going to gut a human child like a fish -- she has some moral objection, sometimes after the second trimester. Which is admittedly better than the Moral Average.

If that sounded cynical -- well, I intended it as such. To call a Roman Catholic my "Christian Brother"??

Shucks, as you know, I am no great fan of Roman Catholicism. But the idea of absolute right and wrong... that's really not very popular any more; and as you may or may not know, Orthodox Presbyterians still recite the Law and the Psalter on frequent occasions. We're still big fans of absolute right and wrong... Considering how many Roman Catholics have abandoned the Law of God, I don't really mind corresponding with an RC who still believes therein.

Which, apparently, you do.

Good on ya', then.

Are you my "Brother"? We disagree on a lot. A lot which is very important.

But, I look at the Israel and the Judah which is around us. Jerusalem, Samaria... Both have their faults. I choose to consider you to be my Brother, polycarp, at least until you get sick of my theological stridency and tell me to go hang.

(grin)

Best, OP