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To: so_real
Everything I've learned from the Bible agrees with those two sentences.

That's the way God "raised me up" to believe. The Holy Spirit has confirmed that interpretation in my heart over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and again and again and again...

God does not lie. He does not make insincere offers. He states clearly that he wants all men to be saved. If you have to change the words of the Bible to fit your theology, then it is time to change theologies. When all the scriptures are balanced it is clear that God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son and that God truly wants all men to be saved.

553 posted on 04/28/2003 10:24:36 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
God does not lie. He does not make insincere offers. He states clearly that he wants all men to be saved. If you have to change the words of the Bible to fit your theology, then it is time to change theologies. When all the scriptures are balanced it is clear that God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son and that God truly wants all men to be saved.

Now that we are over our (ecumeno)pause, we need to address some real concerns. i agree with your first two statements, God does not lie, He does not make insincere offers.

The unfortunate part is that the idea that God wants all men (and just what do you mean by "all men") to be saved. If we find apparent contradictions, it means that our interpretation of one or more passages is wrong (both cannot be right at the same time and in the same relationship.)

The controversy in that particular verse is that for one side or the other to be correct, both must postulate something. The one who believes in the universal offer must postulate that the word translated "all" (get this Greek font from crosswalk.com, no time to post the link), or paÖß, means "all without any exception". Since it is a self-evident truth that all men are not saved, and a revelation of scripture that God's will cannot be resisted, the other extreme must postulate multiple aspects to the will of God, with absolutely no scriptural warrent to do so.

It is imperative that we train our laymen to reason from the Scriptures, and be encouraged to learn the original languages, (trust me, it's not that tough, i taught myself Greek over 20 years ago, and read it fluently, next task, Hebrew) because quite a few sincere, execelent bible Scholars disagree with that assessment (that all, as used in that verse, means all without any exception) for excellent gramatical, syntactical, and contextual reasons, not preconcieved theological reasons.

567 posted on 04/28/2003 10:53:48 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (He must increase, but I must decrease)
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To: P-Marlowe
God does not lie. He does not make insincere offers. He states clearly that he wants all men to be saved. If you have to change the words of the Bible to fit your theology, then it is time to change theologies. When all the scriptures are balanced it is clear that God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son and that God truly wants all men to be saved.

Again, I would agree with you. I would go so far as to say, that because God did give his creation free will, He *doesn't* always get what He wants with respect to His creation. That includes the salvation of everyone; many will indeed perish.

For those here who feel strongly that, because God has forordained all things, He empirically gets everything He desires, I submit Luke 13:34

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

Jesus, Himself, indicates His displeasure with the creation denying the will of the Maker.

There is still a paradox with an omniscient Creator give the creation "true" free will. I understand how the Calvinists try to resolve this paradox. I understand how I try to resolve this paradox. How do you try to resolve this paradox and are your views representative of the Arminian position?
577 posted on 04/28/2003 11:53:15 PM PDT by so_real (It's all about sharing the Weather)
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