Sister Faustina's Vision of Hell

Seattle Catholic ^ | St. Faustina

[lockeliberty]

Golly,
I've never been to the abyesses of Hell but most of these so-called visions have always intuitively been my understanding of Hell. And your right about Satan since he will suffer the worst torment.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Actually rw, the concept of an 'elect' group is contrary to what I've been reading in the Bible. Here's a verse from 2 Peter 3:9 in the RSV and King James versions:

The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[dsc]

I'm sorry I suspected offense where none was intended.

Thank you very much for the extremely informative posts. That helped a lot.

[dsc]

"Number 6 leads me to believe this is a false vision quite clearly. The idea that Satan is some sort of "leader" of Hell having a good jolly old time"

I didn't read it that way at all. Number 6 just reads, "The constant company of Satan." It doesn't say he's not suffering too.

[dsc]

"Actually, we are predestined"

Predestination makes a mockery of free will.

Without free will, none of this makes any sense.

I don't buy it.

[rwfromkansas]

Context.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Explain how that means something other than what he said.

[rwfromkansas]

Check out the NT. "All" doesn't always mean every single person in the whole world. Context.

In these common passages you quoted (I have heard objections raised with them 100 times so the objection is quite standard for Arminians), the context is limited to the elect, as Jesus is talking to them. He doesn't want any of the elect to perish.

As for another common verse, which I think is in 2 Timothy, where God says he desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, the all is clearly "all types of men," because right before that, people are urged to pray for "kings and all who are in authority," not just poor people or Jews etc.

The elect is clearly a Biblical concept or Paul would not have used the word multiple times.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

"All" doesn't always mean every single person in the whole world

All will not be saved but all men have the opportunity to be saved. Do you believe God created certain people for salvation and purposely excluded others? I have read the NT quite extensively and the only way the concept of the 'elect' is supported is when certain Scriptures are considered in isolation of others. Context is taking all Scriptures in entirety, including this one. Context works against you in this case.

That passage also directly contradicts the notion that all born again or so called 'elect' Christians are automatically "saved".

Here's another one for you:

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

[rwfromkansas]

That passage simply describes common grace. God doesn't rain down fire on unbelievers, but lets them live on alongside believers. In this way, he is the savior of all men...but the the special saving grace is only given to "those who believe."

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

There is no mention of grace there. Where do you get that? It's not there is the passage at all.

Your opinions sound dangerously like personal interpretation of Scripture. This was specifically warned against IN Scripture:

2 Peter 3:15-16 So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

[Revelation 911]

There is no mention of grace there. Where do you get that? It's not there is the passage at all.

no disrespect meant but its implied.

FWIW - please show me where the papacy, veneration of Mary and repititious prayer is in scripture as well.

[drstevej]

The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

--

The reason for the delay of the Lord's return, which is the context of this verse, is His gathering of the elect. The you here is clearly believers [the elect].

[fishtank]

"Your opinions sound dangerously like personal interpretation of Scripture. This was specifically warned against IN Scripture:"


This is a RCC "warning" - from the same church that has disregarded the epistle Paul wrote to it (the Roman church) 2000 years ago.

The Roman church NEVER has changed the heresies that Paul was telling them to repent of.

[Quester]

All right. Now, how about my hypothetical Hindu? Is it possible for him to serve God, never having been exposed to any philosophy or theology of the Judeo-Christian tradition?

It is quite possible that God (the all-powerful and supremely loving) would reveal Himself to one in the Hindu culture.

So, an Aztec priest offering up human sacrifices was not committing sins? That wasn't offensive to God? I'm not just quibbling here; I'm honestly trying to get this straight in my mind.

The Aztecs which truly sought God (and to whom God had revealed Himself) likely would not have participated in such activities (i.e would have given up the priesthood, ...). God could easily make such a thing possible.

We know that God is infinitely merciful, loving, and just; so what's the status of a South Sea cannibal? What's the status of a Baal worshiper whose honest and sincere attempts to serve God as best as he knows how led him to cast his living infant into a fire in the idol's belly?

Once again, it is not impossible that God would reveal Himself to such (remember Abram in the idolatrous culture of Ur) as these. Also God is easily able to manipulate the circumstances of these such that they would not be forced to participate in such activity.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Why do the elect need to repent? Aren't the elect already saved?

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

If Christ is the Savior of all men then all men have the opportunity to be saved.

(BTW, I want to add, I understand that the elect referred to in the NT are Christians. No dispute there. My disagreement is that there is a preselected group of them. I believe that God in His omniscience knows what men will choose yet gives all men free will and opportunity for salvation.)

[drstevej]

***Why do the elect need to repent? Aren't the elect already saved? ***

Election occurs before the foundation of the world. The salvation of the elect occurs on the appointed day, when they are regenerated/repent. For me it was in 1968.

[drstevej]

I am a four point Calvinist. I believe that Christ died for all but only the elect are irresistibly drawn to Christ. Only they receive they are regenerated. Only they receive the gift of faith.

The gospel is proclaimed to all but only the elect respond and do so in His timing (Many are called, few are chosen).

***I believe that God in His omniscience knows what men will choose yet gives all men free will and opportunity for salvation.***

God indeed is omniscient. However, His foreknowledge is more than advanced information. to fore-know is to fore-love. Ton know is more than information in this instance. When Adam knew his wife it was more than information, it was a relationship.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

We were chosen before the foundation of the world according to His good pleasure and to His praise and glory.

C_O_D, I became a Calvinist by studying Scripture. My initial reaction was precisely yours. I argued for months with friends and then over several years of study I kept finding a sovereign God who loved me unconditionally.