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To: SoothingDave
***The question that I posed is that a person may be an elect, be chosen by God for salvation (in your parlance), and yet because of circumstances completely outside of the individual's control, he remains ignorant of the name "Jesus."***

Now I am really confused. Is this your theory or established Catholic teaching?

***Did you miss this? I affirmed that there is no other name by which we can be saved.***

Yep. And then you waffled. BTW the text does not say "can be saved" it says "must be saved" [greek = dei] That is a significant difference. The name of Jesus isn't an option according to Peter.

***Scripture and Tradition are not mutually exclusive. It is a traditional understanding of the Scripture, the nature of salvation and the nature of God.***

Chapter and verse Dave. This sure sounds like spin.
57 posted on 06/23/2003 12:14:39 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
***The question that I posed is that a person may be an elect, be chosen by God for salvation (in your parlance), and yet because of circumstances completely outside of the individual's control, he remains ignorant of the name "Jesus."***

Now I am really confused. Is this your theory or established Catholic teaching?

It's not something I invented. It's authentic teaching. Is it outside of the realm of your possibility to imagine a person moved by the Spirit who has no cultural idea of the name for the Spirit? Or does God only "elect" those in cultures where the Gospel is spread?

***Did you miss this? I affirmed that there is no other name by which we can be saved.***

Yep. And then you waffled. BTW the text does not say "can be saved" it says "must be saved" [greek = dei] That is a significant difference. The name of Jesus isn't an option according to Peter.

No waffle here. "Must be saved." I affirm it. Is it the knowledge of the name of the name that saves us, or is it God's selection of us to be saved that saves us? That should be an easy question for ya.

All salvation is because of and by Jesus. But do we need to speak the name at least once in our lives in order to be elect? Or can God elect the ignorant?

SD

58 posted on 06/23/2003 12:19:39 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: drstevej
From The Catechism

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

59 posted on 06/23/2003 12:34:29 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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