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An Orthodox Christian View of Non-Christian Religions
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America ^

Posted on 08/21/2003 8:42:43 AM PDT by RussianConservative

Today's pluralistic society involves numerous and ongoing contacts among people of different faiths. Significant difficulties arise that each religion holds to its own truth claim. A major challenge for Orthodox Christians is to articulate theologically correct approaches to people of other religions.

The pages that follow will explore a view of non-Chnistian religions from an Orthodox Christian perspective. This view holds firmly to the centrality of Christ, a doctrine which is not negotiable, yet acknowledges that salvation can be found outside Christianity.

Guidance provided by Patriarch Bartholomew Let us begin with certain remarks offered by Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople to the Conference on Interreligious Dialogue, Istanbul, March 7, 1998. The Patriarch began with the observation that this conference was convened to discuss important issues of religious truth - in peace. He pointed out that most participants unhesitatingly believe that the religion to which each subscribes is the bearer of God's truth. He noted that the study of world religions makes it clear that perceptions of God, world and man do not coincide; indeed they are often contradictory. And he asked: How can we hold discussions in good faith when each of us is firmly convinced of the truth in his own religion?

The Patriarch proposed two important ways as guides. The first is a strong emphasis on means, which permit people of various faiths to coexist and interact in peace. The second is to seek mutual understanding - in depth - of the teachings of religions about which we engage in dialogue. He noted that we are obliged to confess that shallow appreciation, which is caricature, fosters misunderstanding. And he expressed optimism that, in spite of historical conflicts, ways of peaceful coexistence are possible today.

In addressing the major difficulty - achieving mutual understanding of each other's faith - he asked that we recognize that self-understanding of a religion by its adherents manifests itself at three levels. First is the level of experience. Second is the level of rational and empirical knowledge. Third is the level of clouded insights at which, unfortunately, the masses seem to function. Many of the conflicts that arise among the adherents of different religions are due to misinformation and misunderstanding. Therefore, the Patriarch stressed, religious leaders are responsible for educating and guiding the masses, who are easily carried away. He noted that religious leaders share in the responsibility for conflict in the world.[1]

Though the Patriarch did not speculate on the problem of truth at this time, he spoke boldly on the problem of misunderstood truth by the masses, and on the great need for peaceful coexistence of all people and of all faiths.

Revelation through God's glory, even though the mystery is "beyond" Our exploration of an Orthodox attitude toward non-Christian religions begins with the Christian understanding of God. Emphasis is on the mystery of divine reality - the essence of God - which exceeds human capabilities. It is a basic truth of Orthodox Christianity that God's essence is incomprehensible and inaccessible to the human person; it is "beyond" all creaturely approach. A prayer in the Divine Liturgy expresses it as follows: "... for you are God ineffable, beyond comprehension, invisible, beyond understanding, existing forever and always the same ... "[2] A minor change in the rendition emphasizes the fundamental truth. God's essence is totally "beyond" - "beyond verbalization, beyond comprehension, beyond vision, beyond understanding."

Yet, while the essence of God is beyond communion, God reveals Himself through His Glory. The human person participates in God's energies manifested as theophanies "The glory of the Triune God embraces the universe (ta pania) and brings all things within the scope of His love."[3] God's glory (doxa, kaboth, shekhina) is revealed to human persons in their true intimate relation as an, end and fulfillment of the original creation of man.

The revealed glory of God - his energies - penetrates all creation and is the starting point for Christian life and hope. This central truth of Christianity was communicated doxologically to Isaiah (6:3), and is articulated in the angelic hymn of the Divine Liturgy which accompanies the prayer noted above: "Holy, Holy, Holy are You the Lord of Hosts, heaven and earth are filled with Your glory." This hymn, on the one hand, expresses the total mystery of God and, on the other, notes that His divine glory and love encompass all forms of life, His entire creation.[4]

The human person: in the image and likeness of God Our exploration continues with examination of man's relationship to God. The basic, all-encompassing Christian understanding is that all human persons are created in the image of God. This is linked to a related insight - how God relates to all human persons. In turn, this is linked to yet another insight - how all human persons relate to all other human persons. This has been expressed more concisely as "an orientation, a direction, a relationship of persons."[5]

The primary vector in this complex of relationships is vertical, that is, the relationship of man to God. Yet this vertical relationship with God is incomplete without the secondary, horizontal vector - the relationship of each human person to all other human persons. The bonding agent in this relationship of persons - God and humanity - is mutual love. The ultimate example is provided by the Holy Trinity, where the bond among the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is reciprocal love.

Therefore, the bond among the persons who constitute humanity must also be reciprocal love. One person can not love himself. To be an authentic human being one must be in communion with other persons "loving one another in reciprocal relationship."[6] The Christian way is in communion, each person with each other and all with God. For "God wants all men (human beings) to be saved and receive His Truth" (1 Tim 2:4).

Orthodox emphasis on the creation of the human person in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) means that the personhood of each human being is indelibly imprinted with God's image. And it follows that, carrying God's image, each person has access to revelation and salvation.[7] God is ever present - at all times, in all places and in all things. He did not create man to abandon him but to guide him to redemption, to perfection. God's purpose is the salvation and glorification of man.

The meaning of the image of God in man is to be understood in its universal stamp in all human beings, in their wholeness as persons with immortal souls as well as bodies. Man, as a being of soul and body, falls and rises as a unique ontological entity. The ability to rise after a fall endows each human being with the potential to attain revelation, salvation and glorification. Possessing reason and the will to act, all persons have the capability, to become "like" God.[8]

Three views of non-Christian religions An Orthodox scholar recently observed that there are basically three views that Christians have taken with regard to non-Christian religions. The first is that the non-Christian will be damned because there is no salvation outside the visible Body of Christ, the Church, The second is that the non-Christian may be saved in spite the religion he practices, but only through the mercy of God. The third is that the non-Christian may be saved by means of the very religion he practices, for nonChristian religions may also contain saving truths.[9] These three views parallel the three approaches identified elsewhere as exclusivism. inclusivism and cultural pluralism.

The claim of exclusivism has been rejected by many Orthodox scholars as untenable. This is not done in the interests of facilitating missionary endeavors or to foster world peace. Exclusiveness is rejected as a matter of Truth.[10] The majority of Orthodox scholars would accept inclusivism. Some Orthodox scholars espouse the view characterized as cultural pluralism but with qualifications. Relativism and syncretism are denied. And the view that Christianity is simply one of the world religions offering the blessing of salvation is not accepted. The focus, rather, is on the Spirit of God, the Paraclete, who leads us "Into all the truth," where in Christ all become one.[11]

The approach taken in this paper is to emphasize "the middle way," that of inclusivism. It seems clear that the way of exclusivism is properly rejected as a matter of Truth. At the other extreme, the thin ice of cultural pluralism is fraught with danger.

Scriptural affirmation of the centrality of Christ Let us note that theology is not speculation; it is experience in and of the Body of Christ. The study of theology proceeds in consonance with the Tradition of the Church: its liturgy, its "unwritten" experiences. Scripture, writings of the Fathers, doctrine and canons. The challenges and opportunities attendant to today's religious pluralism must be addressed with Christian conviction, and the dialogue which addresses our concerns for the present and future must harmonize with our roots in our past.

The Christian message of the Good News of Salvation is central. Jesus Christ tells us, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). Peter confesses at Phillipi, "You are the Christ" (Mark 8:29). Saint Paul declares, "He is the Image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation; for in Him all things are created" (Col. 1:15). The Scriptures abound with unequivocal affirmations of the Incarnation and the foundational beliefs that in Christ humanity is saved, is reconciled to God, worships Him, and attains eternal life. "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16). "For in Him all fullness of God was pleased to dwell and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven" (Col 1:19-20). "All knees shall bow to Him" (Rom. 14:11; Is. 45:23). He is "the same yesterday and today and forever" (Heb. 13:8). Orthodoxy continually affirms the centrality of Christ, in the Church and in the world.[12]

These and other similar Biblical statements affirm the Truth claim of Christianity. They are the Word of God, explicitly and implicitly proclaiming fundamental beliefs of the Christian Orthodox Tradition. And, it is to be noted, these statements speak to all humanity; "For God so loved the world ... " is not a limiting statement; God's love extends to all the world. Nor does the objective "... to reconcile to Himself all things ... " have limits; Trinitarian objectives are universal. They encourage an attitude of inclusiveness as we inquire into relationships with other religions. We are reminded that the "Spirit blows wherever it wills" (John 3:8). Peter the Apostle states that. "Truly I perceive God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him" (Acts 10:34-35). St. Paul, addressing the Athenians at the Areopagus, observes that they worship an unknown God, whose name and message he came to proclaim (Acts 17:23-31).

Dialogue with non-Christian religions The Orthodox view of dialogue with other religions is also rooted in the Church Fathers. Subsequent to the Apostolic age St. Justin Martyr, a second century apologist, makes the claim for Christianity that "Whatever things were rightly said among all men are the property of us Christians."[13] Justin espouses the belief that both Gentiles and Jews will be saved on the basis of their piety and holiness. He states that "Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above all that He is the Word (Logos) of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived according to reason are Christian."[14] All peoples are able to participate in the "spermatikos logos" or seed of reason: "For each man spoke well in proportion to the share he had of the spermatic word (reason disseminated among men), seeing what was related to it," because "the seed of reason (the Logos) implanted in every race of men" makes God's revelation accessible to all [15] The pre-existence of the eternal Logos of God enables "all the races of men to participate" in God's revelation. The "seed of the Logos is innate in all the races of men and resides in all people." uniting humanity and making all "part of the Logos."[16]

Saint John Chrysostom, in the fourth century, tells us that God is "not particular but He is the Father of all" and His providence brings the "nations" to salvation. To the Jews God gave the "written law" but to the nations He gave the "natural law," the law innate in human conscience and reason.[17]

In our times. Professor John N. Karmiris, University of Athens, based on his studies of the Church Fathers, concludes that the salvation of non-Christians, non-Orthodox and heretics depends on the all-good, allwise and all-powerful God, who acts in the Church but also through other "ways." God's saving grace is also channelled outside the Church. It cannot be assumed that salvation is denied non-Christians living in true piety and according to natural law by the God who "is love" (1 John 4:8), In his justice and mercy God will judge them worthy even though they are outside the true Church.[18] This position is shared by many Orthodox who agree that God's salvation extends to all who live according to His "image" and "participate in the Logos." The Holy Spirit acted through the prophets of the Old Testament and in the nations. Salvation is also open outside the Church.[19]

The study of world religions There have been significant twentieth century developments, firmly rooted in Scripture and the Church Fathers, in the Orthodox view of nonChristian religions, beginning with the work of Leonidas John Philippides in the 1930s. The study of world religions has become a major discipline in the curriculum of Orthodox Theological Schools, Academic chairs have been established in the Schools of Theology at both Athens and Thessalonike, where ongoing efforts in the history of world religions and in the study of comparative religion flourish. In addition to outstanding major studies and innumerable articles there are first-class textbooks supporting academic programs. These developments witness a powerful Orthodox theological concern with issues of religious Truth, and a willingness to pursue that Truth wherever it may lead.

The prominent Orthodox Christian apologist, Gregorios Papamichael, University of Athens. espouses the view that humanity was gradually prepared for the revelation of the fullness of Truth in Christ This is witnessed in the Old Testament and in the "spermatikos logos" of natural revelation. "Seeds" existed in antiquity but the natural revelation of Truth was incomplete. The fullness of Truth was made manifest in Christ.[20] Jesus Christ, who broke through and "once and for all entered history," is the fulfillment of non-Christian religions that were seeking the Light, the Life, and the Way to the Truth. Christ the eternal entered into time; the absolute entered the world of relativism.[21]

The pre-eminent scholar Leonidas Philippides also takes the position that the "seeds" of salvation are available to all people and that "no people are deprived of God's Providence."[22] Philippides inaugurated twentieth century scholarship in the history of religion and the study of comparative religion at the University of Athens. He produced numerous studies and was also a major influence at the University of Thessalonike. An early work, Comparative Religion and Christian Theology, points out that common ground exists in all religions, while simultaneously emphasizing that the Christian Faith has the fullness of Truth.[23] His monumental History of New Testament Times, decades later, historically, philosophically and theologically analyzes the understanding of God and salvation in world religions.[24]

Philippides' successors at the University of Athens have continued his efforts. Anastasios Yannoulatos. formerly professor of World Religion and now Archbishop of Tirana (Albania), authored major studies and numerous articles which have made tremendous contributions.[25] Professor Dionysios G. Dakouras produced numerous studies in comparative religion and the study of the history of religions, including an excellent analysis, of the criticism of S. Radhakrishnan on Christian exclusivism.[26]

Professor Evangelos D. Sdrakas taught on Islam and. Oriental religions at the University of Thessalonike.[27] Professor Gregory D. Ziakas, also at Thessalonike, is a most important contemporary scholar focusing on Islam and Oriental religions. In his numerous studies and articles he strives to emphasize the affirmatives of various religions.[28]

Especially notable is the work of Professor John N. Karmiris, University of Athens, whose Universality of Salvation in Christ is extremely helpful in understanding the Orthodox attitude toward nonChristian religions from the perspective of systematic theology.[29]

Other relevant studies report on contemporary Orthodox missionary efforts and other activities involving dialogue with other religions.[30]

Truth and Tolerance As has been emphasized, the issue of Christian Truth is of highest importance in the Orthodox view of other religions. Pontius Pilate asked "What is Truth?" (John 18:38). He posed this question to Jesus who standing before him, remained silent. Christians interpret this silence as His reply that the Truth was standing before him - Christ is the Truth.

The Byzantine Empire identified itself as an Orthodox Christian state, however, it allowed for diversity of religious practices within its borders. "In Byzantium, the recognition of Christianity first as a privileged religion, and then as the official religion of the Empire, did not affect the basic principle of tolerance toward the members of other religions. But it restricted the rights they were permitted in public life. Christianity and, after the East-West schism (1054), Orthodoxy were closely linked to the identity of the Byzantine state and thus determined its religious policies."[31]

For Orthodoxy there is a fusion between the truth claim of Christianity and a mandate for tolerance. We may say that one can not be a Christian without embracing tolerance as a concomitant of Christian love. This most significant and long-standing teaching of tolerance in Orthodoxy is emphasized in an encyclical letter of Ecumenical Patriarch Metrophanes III (1520-1580). This document was written to the Greek Orthodox in Crete (1568) following reports that Jews were being mistreated. The Patriarch states, "Injustice ... regardless to whomever acted upon or performed against, is still injustice. The unjust person is never relieved of the responsibility of these acts under the pretext that the injustice is done against a heterodox and not to a believer. As our Lord Jesus Christ in the Gospels said do not oppress or accuse anyone falsely; do not make any distinction or give room to the believers to injure those of another belief."[32]

Today many Orthodox Christians live in societies of cultural, linguistic and religious pluralism. This has cultivated and nourished a deeply-felt attitude of respect, tolerance and understanding toward other people and their religions. The Orthodox Church has no official pronouncement on this matter. However, the long-standing tradition of respect and tolerance for other faiths is well stated by Archbishop Anastasios: "Being created in the image of God, every human being is our brother and sister."[33]

Truth makes reference to the knowledge of being. Tolerance "Implies a certain relationship of religious faith with truth in every concrete manifestation in the world, whether national, political or sociological."[34] The source of all truth is God the Creator, who gives existence to all beings. "God is the originator and the human being is the receiver."[35]

It is a strongly-held Orthodox view that our commitment to Christian Truth affirms a pluralistic, democratic setting where all people can live in peace and harmony. Holding fast to the truth of Christianity, Orthodoxy defends the right of all religious expressions to co-exist harmoniously, in a setting of freedom, where equal protection is afforded to all under the law.

Conclusion Orthodox Christianity sees dialogue not only as proper, but also necessary, in the inevitable interactions with other religions, Interfaith dialogueis best cultivated in an atmosphere of peace and with preparations which emphasize mutual in-depth understanding as the desirable way. There are risks in dialogue, particularly if preparation is inadequate or if there is overemphasis on accommodation. However, the risks of no dialogue are greater.[36]

It is basic Christian doctrine that the Holy Spirit may act wherever and whenever. Presuming to constrain the activity of the Holy Spirit - to limit God Himself- is not the way. Orthodoxy recognizes and accepts the mandate to seek Truth and to follow the Holy Spirit wherever He leads, including in other religions or philosophies when his Truth is to be found there.[37]

The way of Orthodoxy is to converge on the golden mean, carefully avoiding extremes and the pitfalls that can lead to destruction. The Tradition of the Church fosters the understanding of Truth in all the experience of the human person. As the sun shines and gives life and energy to the physical world, the Son of God, the Logos, illuminates every human person who "comes in the world" (Orthodox prayer to the Holy Spirit). The Holy Spirit and the Logos offer Life to all. However, the centrality of Christ, the "Savior of the world", the Logos, is not to be dismissed. He was incarnate for universal salvation and is "the same forever".

The salvation of all people, including non-Christians, depends on the great goodness and mercy of the Omniscient and Omnipotent God who desires the salvation of all people. Those who live in faith and virtue, though outside the Church, receive God's loving grace and salvation. Saint Paul reminds us, "O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable His ways!" (Rom. 11: 33).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, "Greeting" (Conference on Interreligious Dialogue), Orthodoxia, Second Period, Year 5. No. I (January - March 1998) pp. 103-107.

[2]Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, Brookline MA: Holy Cross Orthodox Press (1985) p. 20.

[3]Anastasios Yannoulatos. "Facing People of Other Faiths", The Greek Orthodox Theological Review. Vol 18. Nos 1-4 (1993) p. 140.

[4]Ibid., p. 140.

[5]Kallistos Ware. "In the Image and Likeness: The Uniqueness of the Human Person", Personhood, John T. Chirban (ed.) Westport CT. Bergin and Garvey (1996) p. 3.

[6]Ibid., p. 3.

[7]Zachary C. Xintaras, "Man - The Image of God According to the Greek Fathers", The Greek Orthodox Theological Review, Vol. 1, No. I (August 1954) pp. 48-62.

[8]George P. Patronos. The Glorification of Man in the Light of the Eschatoio cai Perception of the Orthodox Church (in Greek), Athens: Domos Editions (1995) pp. 44-45.

[9]James S. Cutsinger, "The Uniqueness of Jesus Christ and Other Religions" The Greek Orthodox Theological Review. Vol. 42. Nos. 3-4 (1997) p. 429.

[10]Philip Sherrard, "Christianity: Lineaments of a Sacred Tradition, Chapter Three,"Christianity and Other Sacred Traditions, Brookline MA: Holy Cross Orthodox Press (1998) p. 54.

[11]Emmanuel Clapsis, "The Challenge of Contextual Theologies", The Greek Orthodox Theological Review, Vol. 38, Nos. 1-4 (1993) pp. 74-75.

[12]See Theodore Stylianopoulos, "A Christological Reflection", Jesus Christ, the Life of the World, (ed.) Ion Bria, Geneva: World Council of Churches (1962) p. 31ff.

[13]Justin Martyr, "Second Apology, 13." The Ante-nicene Fathers, Vol. I Grand Rapids; Wm. Ferdmans Pub, Co (1950) p. 193.

[14]Ibid., "First Apology, 36", p. 178.

[15]Ibid., "Second Apology, 8", p. 191

[16]Ibid., "Second Apology, 8, 10", p. 191. See also the excellent study by John N. Karmiris, The Universality of Salvation in Christ (in Greek), Athens: Offprint from Theologia. Vol. 5.52. p. 34

[17]John Chrysostom, "Interpretation of the Epistle to the Romans, Homily 7.4", PG 60, C. 447. See also Karmiris, The Universality of Salvation in Christ, pp. 45 – 46

[18]Karmiris, The Universality of Salvation in Christ, p. 49-50. See also Sherrard, "Christianity ... " op. cit., p. 55.

[19]Theodore N. Zeses, "The Operation of the Holy Spirit Outside the Church" (in Greek). Seminarion Theologon Thessalonikes, No, 5, Thessalonike (1971) p. 184-199.

[20]Gregorios Papamichael. The Essence and Depth of Christianity (in Greek), Athens (1937) p. 7.

[21]Ibid, p. 8. See also the excellent analysis in Leonidas Philippides, History of Religions in Themselves and in Christian Theology (in Greek), Athens: Pyrgos Press (1938) pp. 151-153.

[22]Philippides, History of Religions .... op, cit., p. 172. Analyses of Justin Martyr and Clement of Alexandria are provided, pp. 168-175.

[23]Philippides, Comparative Religion and Christian Theology (in Greek), Athens Phoenikos Press (1930) (pp. 16-17).

[24]Philippides, History of New Testament Times (in Greek:), Athens: Apostolike Diakonia Press (1958).

[25]Yannoulatos: Various Christian Approaches to the Other Religions. A Historical Outline, Athens: Porefthentes Editions (1971); Islam; A General Survey (in Greek) . Athens: Ethnoi and Laoi Editions (1975); The Lord of Light, God of the Mountain Kenya Tribes (in Greek), Athens (1971).

[26]Dionysios G. Dakouvas, The Claims of Christianity a.y Absolute Religion According to Lale Hinduism (in Greek). Athens; (Offprint of Theologia) Apostolike Diakonia Press (1980) pp. 5-31.

[27]Evangelos D. Sdrakas, Polemics against Islam of the Byzantine Theologians (in Greek) , Thessalonike: M. Triantafylou and Sons Publishing (1961).

[28]Gregory D. Ziakas, History of Religions, Volume One, "The Indian Religions", Volume Two, "Islam" (in Greek), Thessalonike; p Poumaras Editions (1992).

[29]Karmiris, The Universality of Salvation in Christ, op. cit., p. 34.

[30]Michael J. Oleksa. "Evangelism and Culture"The Greek. Orthodox Theological Review, Vol. 42, Nos. 3-4 (1997), pp. 531-538; Daniel Bambang Dwi Byantoro, "Evangelising Non-Christians to Orthodoxy in Indonesia."The Greek Orthodox Theological Review, Vol. 42, Nos. 3-4 (1997), pp. 499-514. [Note: This issue of The Greek Orthodox Theological Review contains all the papers of the International Conference on Mission and Evangelism, August 6-11. 1995, pp. 397-561.] Demetrios J. Constantelos: Issues and Dialogue in the Orthodox Church since World War Two, Brookline MA, Holy Cross Orthodox Press (1986); The Attitude of Orthodox Christians Toward Non-Christians, Brookline MA, Holy Cross Orthodox Press (1992). Methodios Fouyas: Hellenism and Judaism (in Greek), Athens: Nea Smyrna (1995), Hellenistic Jewish Tradition. Athens: Nea Smyrna (1995); The Basis for Islam (in Greek) Athens'

[31]A. Papandreou, "Truth and Tolerance in Orthodoxy," op. cit., p. 228. See also Patriarch Bartholomew I, Address to the Conference on Peace and Tolerance, Istanbul, February 8, 1994, Orthodoxia. Second Period, Vol 1, No- 2 (April-June 1994) pp. 343-347 - This conference produced "The Bosporus Declaration" which the Patriarch signed (February 8, 1994).

[32]George C. Papademetriou, Essays on Orthodox Christian-Jewish Relations, Bristol IN: Wyndam Hall Press (1990) p. 88.

[33]Yannoulatos, "Facing People of Other Faiths" op cit., p. 151.

[34]Damaskinos Papandreou, "Truth and Tolerance in Orthodoxy" Immanuel, 26/27 (1994) pp. 225-226.

[35]D. Constantelos, The Attitude of Orthodox Christians Toward Non-Orthodox and Non-Christians, op. cit., p. 8.

[36]Demetrios Trakatellis, "Theology in Encounter: Risks and Visions"The Greek Orthodox Theological Review, Vol. 25, No, 1 (1987) pp. 31-37, Yannoulatos, "Byzantine and Contemporary Greek Orthodox Approaches to Islam"Journal of Ecumenical Studies. Vol. 33, No 4 (Fall 1996) pp. 512-527. Ziakas, "Dialogue between Christianity and Buddhism: Approach from Orthodox Perspectives," (in Greek). Epeterida of the Theological School of Thessalonike (Department of Theology), Vol. 8 (1999).

[37]Zescs, "The Holy Spirit". Seminarion Theologon Thessalonikes. No. 5 (1971) pp. 188ff. Emmanuel Clapsis,

"The Boundaries of the Church: An Orthodox Debate", The Greek Orthodox Theological Review. Vol. 35, No. 2

(Summer 1990) pp. 113-127 George Khodre "Christianity in a Pluralistic World, The Economy of the Holy Spirit" TheEcumenical Review, Vol. 23 (January 1971-December 1971) pp. 118-128.


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To: Boiler Plate
Actually, I suppose I owe you a little more than a repetition of the oft-given Orthodox explanation that Christianity is not an ideology based on a text.

The section of the kneeling prayers is indeed supported by the canon of Scripture, once one remembers that the Books of the Macabbees were removed by Luther, not added by the Papacy. (All Orthodox accept them as canonical Scripture on the basis of the decisions of the same councils which fixed the content of the New Testament, and unless you have been very inattentive, you know that we do not accept councils of the Latin Papacy (like Trent) held since its departure from the Church.)

Judas Macabbeus is commended for offering prayers and sacrifices for the forgiveness of his fallen comrades sins because this showed he had a regard for the resurrection (incidentally, the only testimony in the Old Covenant Scriptures pointing to the resurrection, and the only plain Scriptural support for the notion of creation ex nihilo occur in the books rejected by protestants). Now, careful examination of the Scriptures show that until the Last Judgement, hell is not coextensive with the Lake of Fire, but with gehenna or sheol (or in the Greek hades).

Those for whom Judas Macabbeus prayed were not in paradise (as Christ had not yet come to reopen paradise) so they must have been in hell. We have the same regard for the Resurrection that Judas Macabbeus had, indeed more, knowing now who is the Resurrection, and thus we pray (and offer sacrifices, now usually candles since Christ's Saving Death and Resurrection render blood sacrifice useless) for those who have died and are (or may be) in hell.

121 posted on 08/24/2003 7:07:16 PM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: The_Reader_David
David,
I have read Maccabbees as well as the other Apocrapha text, and it is easy to see why it is not part of the cannon. Judith's claim of God's helping her lie to the Assyrians is a good example.

However Christ describes paradise and hell in Luke 16:19-31. I do not see any reason to pray for Lazarus nor does Christ indicate that we should.

In regards to the resurrection have you forgotten when Abraham was called by God to sacrifice his son. Paul clearly points out the meaning of this in Hebrews 11.

Those who have died will be judged for their own deeds and not for anything that anyone else does for them. Any pray or candles you devote to the dead is a simply a matter of time wasted that could have been used to save the living with us now.

Regards,
Boiler Plate
122 posted on 08/24/2003 10:12:16 PM PDT by Boiler Plate
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To: MarMema
Members of the "reformed" churches of Western Christendom easily relate to Orthodoxy's emphasis on personal faith and the Scriptures. Orthodox Christians believe that we cannot save ourselves by our own good works.

True enough. There are more RCers in the last fifty years who are Bible students. I think their current generation of laymen could easily be said to be the most knowledgable about scripture. I suppose we non-Romans in the western churches see this as something of a victory. To compete with us, they've had to at least return to scripture.

We believe Orthodox theology offers the "western" denominations a way in which apparently opposite differences can be synthesized.

Well, I don't see that exactly.
123 posted on 08/25/2003 3:32:44 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: Boiler Plate
I suppose for those who follow Luther's lead the balance of the Old Testament needed to be excluded because it doesn't fit with your pre-conceived theology. Luther did not have the authority to throw books out of the canon which had been included by the Fouth Ecumenical Council by reference to earlier local councils and explicitly by the Sixth Ecumenical Council.

Sorry but the 'apocrypha' was always part of the canon for all Christians both Orthodox and heretical, once the canon was fixed, until an Augustinian monk rebelling against the already heretical Patriarchate of Rome and carrying conceptual baggage he got from growing up among heretics decided to throw it out. The 'apocrypha' is still part of the canon for all Orthodox, Nestorian, monophysite and Latin Christians, the fact that a minority of the Roman Patriarchate decided to drop it is very underwhelming as an argument against practices Christians have engaged in since the days of the Apostles.

124 posted on 08/25/2003 7:12:23 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: The_Reader_David
David,
You seem to be the one with preconceived ideas. I have read the apocrypha and found it lacking and agree with Luther that they don't belong. As I mentioned before the book of Judith is the most obvious in her asking God to help her lie to the Assyrians and then giving God the credit for the lie. There was a lot of lying and deception in the Bible but with the exception of Moses asking to go sacrifice in the desert I don't think God condoned it and in Moses' example God was stirring up Pharoah's heart.
None the less other than the one example in Maccabees there is no other place where praying for the dead is given. More importantly it is quite clear from numerous examples in scripture that we are judged for own actions and there is no exception to that. In the case of Maccabbees it obvious as to why Luther removed it. Here is one passage against scores of others saying that each man will be judged for his own actions. The Passage seems so out of context both theolically as well as in style that it seems to be written by someone much latter, with an agenda in mind.
Dave buddy, you seem most of all to be fairly self righteous and so I do not see there being much chance of you changing your point view so instead I wish you good luck with you efforts to win souls to Christ. Rember that's what here for after all.

Regards,
Boiler Plate
125 posted on 08/27/2003 7:25:27 PM PDT by Boiler Plate
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To: RussianConservative
"Salvation found through relationship with Christ..."

This sounds more like Protestant thinking and not Orthodox. Relationship is not the proper word. We are servants of God, not some entity which can determine the proper relationship ourselves. If we are obedient to our Lord, then we are saved!

Here is how you attain salvation:

1. Baptism WITHIN the Church (not some fly by night, ecumenist, mumbo jumbo talking Protestant or RC group)

2. Confession of sins.

3. Daily prayers (morning and evening prayers)

4. attending important church services (by the way, today is the feastday of the Dormition of the Theotokos--C'praznikom)

5. receiving Communion.

Its that simple.

In Christ,
Rdr John
126 posted on 08/28/2003 1:14:48 PM PDT by OldCorps
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To: Boiler Plate
If my ideas seem preconceived to you perhaps it is only because they were conceived of centuries before your own ideas. They are not mine, but those of the Fathers. The Holy Ecumenical Councils included the so-called Apocrypha in the canon of Holy Scripture, and neither you nor Luther nor I have the authority to remove them just because we don't like their content.
127 posted on 08/29/2003 8:30:50 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: The_Reader_David
David,
You presume much and apparently do little other than criticize others for not having your full enlightenment.
The balance of scripture weighs heavily against the heretical notion that any person other than Christ can ataone for our own sins. This idea that lighting candles or offer sacrifices for the dead's sin is really nothing short of blasphemy and you will be hard pressed to find anything Christ said to support it.
You incorrectly stated that this oddball verse in Maccabbees is the only place in the Old Testament that talks about the resurection however you didn't even know about the meaning of Abraham's sacrifice. You might want to spend a little more time in the New Testament and as I suggested you should problably start with the Great Commision.
I live across the street from a Greek Orthodox Minister and you know what has always struck me as funny, is the fact that he has never invited me to his church nor bothered to find out if I knew Christ as my Savior. Which I know understand seeing as you are trying to relieve yourself from the Lord's calling to go and make disciples of all nations, by this wacked out concept of salvation thru other belief systems. What a bunch of lazy cowards. Well unfortunately for you the brand of christianity you hold to is being made insignificant by those who are willing to go bravely to the four corners of the earth and preach the Good News even at the cost of their own lives. So keep telling yourself that we are all wrong and keep throwing rocks at those of those who are willing to spread the Gospel till every nation and people have heard the Word.
Best Regards,
Boiler Plate
128 posted on 08/29/2003 5:55:22 PM PDT by Boiler Plate
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To: Boiler Plate
I cannot speak for the Greek priest who lives near you. I do know, however, that the reevangelization of Albania after the Communist captivity happened under Greek clergy, that Holy Orthodoxy is the fastest growing Christian group in Africa, that the Holy Orthodox Church now has a foothold in Indonesia and is winning converts from Islam, despite the fact that conversion is a death sentence.

Perhaps your neighboring priest is lazy in spreading the Gospel, perhaps he has sufficient spiritual sight to understand you are mired in protestant preconceptions (such insight is not unheard of in Orthodox clergy and monastics).

129 posted on 08/30/2003 12:50:04 PM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: The_Reader_David
Dave,
Save your silly insults for some other potential convert. Your reliance on writings that have always been in question and clearly do not align themselves with the central theme of the Bible (Which is Christ) leaves with little more than a mystical cult like religion. You are highly steeped in tradition that has gone on for ages and apparently gets accepted simply because you have always done it.
I asked you to provide another example from Jesus' teaching to support this concept of repentance in proxy and all you can do is throw back insults. Why, because there is no example of Christ allowing for someone repentance in proxy. The whole of scripture speaks against the concept but somehow because you guys hang on to a questionable writing you think that the balance of scripture should be thrown out to allow for your crazy concept. Well go ahead with your heresy it is no concern of mine. As far as Pastor across the street goes he is no different than any other Orthodox minister or layperson I have met, they simple do not evangelize. It seems that for the most part you guys seem to have a Hyper-Calvinist view and that if God wants you to be saved than you will come to Church on your own.
While I applaud your efforts in Albania and Indonesia, you can't possible believe that compared to the evangelism done by the protestant and catholic churches over the last 500 years even to this present day that the soul winning efforts of the Orthodox church are much of a priority. Evangelism in those of those of us who are not orthodox is our highest priority and if your spiritual leaders are taught how to be discerning enough to avoid spiritual dregs like myself, shame on you for Christ came for the spiritually sick (Matt 9:12, Mk 2:17,Lk 5:31).
Again I ask you, since you are so enlightened, to explain how your verse in Maccabbees jives with what Paul writes in Romans 9 especially with verses 27 and 28.


23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Good Luck,
Boiler Plate
130 posted on 08/30/2003 8:38:30 PM PDT by Boiler Plate
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To: Boiler Plate
On the one hand, the sacrifices of the Old Covenant were ordained and commanded by God, on the other, they are imperfect and worthless in comparison to Christ's saving Death and Resurrection, of which they were a type or prefiguration.

The blood sacrifice of the Old Covenant is abolished, but the bloodless sacrifice of the Eucharist continues, making present for the Faithful the very Body and Blood of Christ. The offering of blood sacrifices by Judas Macabbeus on behalf of the fallen prefigures the prayers of the Church for the departed which are offered at every Liturgy, and privately by the faithful.

I repeat, the so called Aprocrypha was always part of the canon from the time it was fixed. Neither you nor I nor the 'reformers' have nor had any authority to remove it. There was always a tradition of not interpreting one passage of Scripture in a way contrary to other passages. The fact that reading the Scriptures outside their natural setting in the life of the Church, you can't find a way to interpret the Books of the Macabbees or Judith so as not to be repugnant to your interpretation of other passages suggests a flaw in your interpretation of the passages or your entire hermeneutic. The Fathers found no contradiction, nor do I. The "doubt" about their status arose not from doctrinal contradictions, but from St. Jerome's erroneous preference for the Masorete (which unknown to him was not a Hebrew ur-text, but a redaction of the Jewish Scriptures made by Christ-denying rabbis) over the Septuagint. I repeat again, the entire Septuagint was accepted as Holy Scripture by all Christians whether Orthodox, Arian, Nestorian, monophysite or Latin until Luther. The only ones to question these writings prior to Luther were the Christ-denying Jews of the Council of Jamnia. If you prefer their judgment to that of the Holy Ecumenical Councils, that is your business, but I certainly do not, nor did any Christians before Luther (even St. Jerome only suggested the books in the Septuagint without corresponding books in the Masorete were less important, not erroneous).

As to evangelization: If you want to stretch the time horizon back 500 years, I would certainly add for the Orthodox the conversion of the native peoples of Siberia and Alaska, and the establishment of the Orthodox Church of Japan (St. Nicholas of Japan's manual for evangelization procedures is, I am told, used by protestants now). Of course, you might still complain: many in Alaska attribute their ancestor's conversion to St. Herman, who lived as a hermit on Spruce Island, hardly a vigorous program of evangelization in the sense the word is usually used by protestants. A lot of evangelization by the Orthodox looks like living holy lives, not like preaching.

131 posted on 09/01/2003 2:01:38 PM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: Boiler Plate
Bolier Plate,

"I asked you to provide another example from Jesus' teaching to support this concept of repentance in proxy and all you can do is throw back insults. Why, because there is no example of Christ allowing for someone repentance in proxy..."

I'm not sure what you mean by repentence by proxy. If you are refering to the sacrement of confession (repentence), below is the proper scripture from the Gospel of St. John, chapter 20 (these events occured just after Christ was crucified):

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost [Spirit]:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Hope this helps.

In Christ,
Reader John



132 posted on 09/03/2003 6:14:18 PM PDT by OldCorps
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To: OldCorps
this isnt a reply to your post, im just new to posting and wasnt sure who else to click;)
i have a question, hopefully its not a stoopid one, but what is the difference between a catholic church and an orthodox church? i became a catholic about 4 years ago and have attended mass at our local parish, but our new priest is a flaming liberal! i notice an orthodox church just opened up downtown and was curious what the differnce was. thanks:)
133 posted on 09/03/2003 6:43:17 PM PDT by moondancer
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To: moondancer
Glad to help:

in 1054 the eastern (Orthodox) and western (now called Roman Catholic) churches split. the issue was two fold:

1. politcal power: Rome advanced that all other churches were subject to its rule. The Eastern (Orthodox) patriarchs of Constantinople, Antioch, Jurusalem, etc. all adhered to the previous Ecumenical Councils (highest ruling body in the church-representatives from all the churches throughout the world attended) that stated each patriarch (a patriarch is a bishop) has an equal voice. They did agree however, that up until the great schism, the bishop of rome was senior in terms of protocol.

2. Rome added the filoque to the creed...they now contend the Holy Spirit proceeds from the God the Father and the Son.

The Orthodox church maintains the creed from previous ecumenical councils: the Holy Spirit proceeds from God the Father only. Rome changed their view on this around the time of the schism, probably to justify cutting relations between the two churches.

Since then, the Roman Catholic church has changed so many things. They adopted the Gregorian calander, they advanced the doctrine of papal infalibility, and in general have moved away from the Orthodox faith. On the other hand, the Orthodox church has pretty much kept the faith unchanged in belief and practice since the early church fathers.

Regards,

134 posted on 09/03/2003 9:24:53 PM PDT by OldCorps
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To: OldCorps
Thanks:)
heres another question (im just full of them) lol
my fiance is irish roman catholic, just getting him to go into the methodist church were our scout meetings are was a big deal!
he is really disatisfied with the mass we have. he grew up with it in latin, no hand shaking or hugging ect. little changes really bother him too ie: the parish has Christ off the cross, he says he should be on the cross, doesnt like the way communion is given ect.
i would like us to attend church together...do we go orthodox (would he, being so set in his ways?) or do we travel miles to find a different church? we live in wyo so anything else is atleast 2 hours away! if he would find orthodox more to his tastes from his earlier years how would i purpose that to him? sorry if i have lots of Q's, still learning:)
135 posted on 09/03/2003 10:11:48 PM PDT by moondancer
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To: OldCorps
Reader David,
Suggested that by the act of Judas Macabbeus praying and giving sacrifice for his fallen countrymen, that we should do the same. The passage in Macabbees states that Judas' act undid their sin of wearing amulets under their tunics. That is simply unsupported by anything else written in scripture and as scripture interprets scripture the passage problably was added later and is not part of the original writing.
Regards,
Boiler Plate
136 posted on 09/03/2003 11:50:33 PM PDT by Boiler Plate
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To: moondancer
I am betting he might like the Orthodox liturgy...

You could just suggest it to him as a visit. For both of you a visit is the best idea to begin anyway.
Feel free to freepmail me if you think I can answer any questions. After the liturgy, we usually have a meal or coffee hour in the church, and it's a good time to speak with people there, including the priest and his wife.

137 posted on 09/03/2003 11:58:31 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: Boiler Plate
Right,

I'll just step aside and mind my own business.

Regards,
138 posted on 09/04/2003 5:50:43 AM PDT by OldCorps
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To: moondancer
he grew up with it in latin, no hand shaking or hugging ect. little changes really bother him too ie: the parish has Christ off the cross, he says he should be on the cross, doesnt like the way communion is given ect.

This former Irish Catholic grew up with the Latin mass, no hugging, no ladies on the altar, kneeling while receiving Communion on the tongue and no rock and roll Masses.

The Orthodox Church has been my life saver.

Is the new church an Orthodox Church of America?

If so, the Liturgy will be in English.

You can go here:

and look to see if any OCA parishes are in your area.

139 posted on 09/04/2003 6:10:00 AM PDT by katnip (I'm still Irish though!!)
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To: moondancer
Given that you have to travel long distances to go to church, I suggest you read a couple of books before you go.

This first book, The Orthodox Church, by Bishop Kallistos (Timothy Ware), a convert like many of us, covers some basic things. However, later editions, such as the ones you will most likely find available, do have some revisionist material. If possible, get an earlier version of the book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140146563/qid=1062679977/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-4476042-6607321?v=glance&s=books

The next book is the Law of God by (Archpriest) Seraphim Slobodskoy. I couldn't find it on amazon.com, or ebay. But i did find it on half.com by ebay at

http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=1416166&meta_id=1

you might have to sign in. If so, the link above might not work. This beautiful book goes into great detail about the faith and practice of the church.

It seems your fiance does not like change; that is good of course, because we have not changed our services much since the founding of the church by the apostles. The Divine Liturgy which is celebrated in Orthodox churches everywhere throughout the world on Sundays (and other feastdays) was written by St. John Chrysostom in the 4th century. However, it seems to me that your fiance will have to open his mind to the fact that Orthodox practice is not like a latin mass. Yes, he will hear the creed and the Lord's Prayer, but the service is different; it hasn't changed like RC mass.

Finally, I suggest you call in advance before going to the Orthodox church. Tell the priest your circumstances so he can be more prepared.

May the Lord direct your steps,

In Christ,
Reader John
140 posted on 09/04/2003 6:17:10 AM PDT by OldCorps
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