Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

When Worlds Collide! RadTraddyLand Meets St. Blogs - Priest defends strange Popcak comments
http://www.thrownback.blogspot.com/2003_08_17_thrownback_archive.html#106144691180028909 ^ | August 20, 2003 | Fr. Rob Johansen

Posted on 08/21/2003 2:36:42 PM PDT by Akron Al

To set the stage. Freepers were discussing some very strange, very weird comments by Greg Popcak:

"I am aware of some families where the brother may chart his sister's temperatures for her, or even some cases where the mother shares her own NFP chart (minus the coitus record, of course) with the intent of acquainting the young men and women of the house with NFP. I also know some families who object to this idea on privacy or modesty grounds."

And:

"You will have to decide whether having boys record their sister's or mother's temperatures is an option for your family, but as long as the person whose chart it is (the mother or sister) is not terribly opposed to the idea (you really have to respect her opinion on this), I feel favorably toward the idea because it decreases the chances that your young teens will eroticize their sexuality."

Among others.

See:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/966863/posts

A Popcak friend, Mark Shea, was unwilling to defend these strange comments, but decided to turn his guns on traditionalists at his blogspot:

http://www.markshea.blogspot.com/2003_08_01_markshea_archive.html#106147776560841496

Shea also seems strange, as suggested by the title of his flimsy Popcak defense:

Attack of the Spastic Sphincter People

Now a priest has jumped into the debate with an equally strange and weird summary of yesterday's discussion.

From his blogspot:

When Worlds Collide!

or,

RadTraddyLand Meets St. Blogs!

If you've been following Mark Shea's blog of late, you'll recognize this latest fracas:

The scene: a typically quiet evening in St. Blog's. Mark Shea has been poking gentle fun at Leftists and self-appointed Hollywood arbiters of moral opinion. He turns his attention to the latest depredations of the RadTrad Alliance, and they unleash their fury!

Mark Shea: Will you look at these wacky RadTrads! Nuptial language as an analogy to God's relationship with us? "Eww! Gross!" Never mind that it's scriptural... "And how dare that Greg Popcak advocate that horrible Theology of the Body! We RadTrads all know that Theology of the Body is just an effort to open the floodgates of lust!"

Curious Girl: So if I wonder about some things Greg writes does that mean I hate the Pope?

Mark Shea: No, but those RadTrad Freepers do hate the Pope and are using this distortion of Greg's writing as their latest excuse to beat up on him. And they don't even know what they're talking about.

Curious Girl: Well, that Greg Popcak has said some strange things. Maybe those Freepers are just raising good...

RadTraddy-Daddy [jumping up and down, shouting]: All those NFP people are WEIRDOS! Everyone knows that! Greg Popcak is a PERVERT who practically advocates incest! How could a sicko like that get on EWTN?

RadTraddy-Laddy: And Popcak is friends with Scott Hahn! And Scott Hahn has written bizarre stuff comparing the Trinity with the family. Can you believe that! I don't recall reading that in the Decrees of the Council of Trent (Family Edition [TM]).

RadTraddy-Daddy: Sounds like Heresy to me! You know [whispers], Scott Hahn is still secretly a Protestant... Do you see the connection?

RadTraddy-Laddy: Yeah! Pretty sinister stuff...

Mark Shea: That's crazy! I know Greg Popcak, and his family...

Happy-Zappy: Oh, right, you knnoowww Greg. Is that somehow supposed to make up for his weirdness and perversity? Let's wait and see how his great-grandchildren turn out before we credit him with being a good husband and father.

NotTraddyEnough: I'm not really comfortable telling teens about all that NFP stuff, charting and temperatures and whatnot...

RadTraddy-Daddy: Well, of course not. If they start thinking about their sister's menstrual cycle or cervical mucus they'll want to have sex! Besides, we know that it's best to tell kids about sex after they've graduated from High School.

Fr. Rob: Mark, just ignore these Freeper RadTrad kooks. There are only 9 people involved in this "discussion". I used to pay attention, but then I realized I was reading the ravings of the same small group of nutjobs.

RadTraddy-Laddy: Ha! Got you, Fr. Rob! There are 10 people in this Freeper thread. [sticking his tongue out] So there! Besides, you're just a Novus Ordo priest (and therefore a dupe of Karol Wojtyla) so we don't have to listen to you!

Mark Shea: Sure, Happy. Why bother to find out what Greg actually said before condemning him?

Happy-Zappy: Mark, do you feed and clothe your children or do you send them out to panhandle and wander the streets, and find what food they can in dumpsters? Will you have your children chart each other?

Ichabod Bayer: Once we have a Catholic Monarch, we won't have to worry about this NFP nonsense anymore! Okay, just kidding. But seriously, did Greg actually advocate brothers and sisters helping each other chart? That sounds kinda icky.

TraddyBard: Dead skunk in the middle of the road

Dead skunk in the middle of the road.

You got yer dead skunk in the middle of the road,

Stinkin' to high Heaven!

BigGunnTraddy: Hey, don't you make fun of Catholic Monarchy! Look at the wonders it's done for Monaco and Lichtenstein. Just you wait till we stage our coup and establish the Duke of Orleans here as King!

GwynnDiesel: Look, these RadTrads just can't deal with any of the mystic imagery in Church Tradition. I mean, in the Middle Ages the Virgin Mary was sometimes depicted barebreasted, nursing the Lord.

RadTraddy-Daddy: Don't you eroticize the Blessed Mother! She didn't have breasts. The Lord was nursed by a bird which gave him to drink milk from a Blessed Coconut. I read about it in the visions of Grunhilde of Thuringia. I have a deep devotion to the Holy Coconut of Nazareth.

RadTraddy-Laddy: Speaking of breasts, you know, when Karol Wojtyla (the erstwhile "Pope" John Paul II) visited Papua, New Guinea, he actually received a native woman there in native garb, bare-breasted! That proves that the Theology of the Body is evil!

RadTraddy-Daddy: And she wasn't wearing a mantilla, either... Modernist!

RadTraddy-Laddy: Heretic! [whispers] Do you see the connection?

RadTraddy-Daddy: Wow! It's worse than I thought.

NonTraddyMommy: In my experience as a parent, I've found it's really important to be open with your kids about sex, so that they learn the true Catholic understanding of it before they hear the world's corrupted version...

RadTraddy-Daddy: Some subjects are better not discussed. The next thing you know, you'll be talking like that pervert Popcak who says we should teach kids that sex is something good and pleasurable and holy.

RadTraddy-Laddy: God Save Us! We all know that all that nonsense about the "unitive" dimension of sex is just giving license to lasciviousness. It's really only holy to want sex when you intend to conceive a child. And even then you should close your eyes and try not to enjoy it too much.

Maddy-Traddy: I always insist that the room be pitch-black and that we be under the covers, so as to preserve modesty.

RadTraddys: A virtuous Catholic woman!

Fr. Rob: Happy, why couldn't you just ask Greg to clarify himself before passing judgment?

Happy-Zappy: Once someone has written something, his statement is what it is. A person always writes exactly what he intends to convey and I am always able to discern fully what he meant. Therefore further conversation is pointless. If you don't want me to pass judgment on your thoughts, then keep them to yourself.

Mark Shea: Will you people please READ what Greg wrote? Look, Greg didn't advocate that brothers chart their sister's cycles, he simply described that some NFP families taught their kids how to do it, and that some families objected to that on the basis of modesty.

Happy-Zappy: Well, then it might not be so bad. But I'm still suspicious. That Popcak is a slippery character.

Maddy-Traddy: All those NFP people are slippery. I'll bet the mucus has something to do with it.

RomanticTrad: Doesn't all that charting and mucus-checking seem unnatural? I mean, how is that stuff a prelude to sex? I prefer romance.

RadTraddy-Laddy: Romance is OK, as long as proper decorum is observed. I've even been known, when in an amorous mood, to dance the minuet or gavotte with my wife.

Happy-Zappy: I've been re-reading Popcak, and he doesn't unequivocally condemn charting between siblings. He must be tacitly endorsing it, then! It is an unfailing rule of logic that whatever you do not completely condemn is at least partially approved. So Popcak really is advocating a sexual experimenting on kids!

RadTraddys: You finally have seen the light! We've been saying all along that Popcak is a sicko, and so is his friend Shea.

RadTraddy-Daddy: They're doing it under the banner of JP II's Theology of the Body! And JPII wouldn't do anything about the pedophiles. Do you see the connection?

Rad Traddy-Laddy: Wow! It's worse than I thought. You know who we need here now? Joe D'Hippolito! He'd see how it all fits together!

Cauldron Pyre: And what's all this sunshine-and-lollipops Popcak and Shea are spreading about joy and happiness and love? Doesn't he know that our scowls, frowns, and sour-faced grim looks are just as pleasing to God as smiles and light-heartedness?

ShellyJelly: Could someone explain to me why it would actually be morally wrong for a brother to help his sister with charting?

RadTraddys: Feuh! How dare you try to force us to make an argument! We have expressed our repulsion at such behavior, because it is ICKY. We have condemned such goings-on as WEIRD. There is no provision for anything like it in the Catechism of Trent or in the writings of Marian Horvat, Ph.D (Peace Be On Her!). Our disapprobation is sufficient moral censure. To the Outer Darkness with Popcak, Shea, Johansen, and all the other Neo-Catholic stooges of the false Vatican II regime! Anathema sint! Damnatae memoriae eorum sint!

posted by Fr. Rob 1:21 AM

16 Comments


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-81 next last
Not very funny. but certainly weird...like Popcak's comments. Just weird...
1 posted on 08/21/2003 2:36:42 PM PDT by Akron Al
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Akron Al
And as has been noted by others, it is not just traditionalists who are creeped out by Popcak. The article critical came from CatholicCitizens.org. From there webpage:

Meet the People of the CatholicCitizens.org.

Executive Staff
Mary Anne Hackett - President
Mr. Karl Maurer - Vice President, Treasurer and Web Editor
Thomas F. Roeser - Chairman of the Board

Advisory Board
Dan Cheely - Mauk, Bellande & Cheely
Cristov Dosev - Mardoc Properties, LP
Keith Fournier - Your Catholic Voice Foundation
Deal Hudson - Crisis Magazine
Dennis Martin - Loyola University Professor of Theology
Joseph A. Morris - Morris, Rathnau & De La Rosa
Michael Rose - Author
David A. Shaneyfelt - Thomas Aquinas University
Jerome A. Urbik - Hinsdale Associates
2 posted on 08/21/2003 2:41:39 PM PDT by Akron Al
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Akron Al
Even leading neocon rod Drher of the National Review finds the comments disgusting:

From the shea's blog:

But is G.P. really recommending that brothers and sisters help each other chart? If so: ICK.)
Rod Dreher | Email | 08.20.03 - 8:07 pm | #
3 posted on 08/21/2003 2:45:45 PM PDT by Akron Al
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Maximilian; Diago
Just so the records complete. Here are Mark Shea's comments on the above article:

The Court Records of Yesterday's "Tribunal In Judgment of the Worthiness of Greg Popcak to Bear the Name 'Christian'" Are Now Available On Line

To briefly recap: Some Inquisitor decided to smear Popcak as an enemy of the Faith because a) he used (gasp!) sexual and nuptial imagery to speak of the Trinity (unheard of to the authors of John, Revelation, and Ephesians) and b) in the course of a long career of teaching chastity and the sanctity of marriage Popcak remarked that he knows some people who let their adolescent kids chart their siblings cycles, but that, of course, others think this is immodest, so make up your own mind since you are the parent and it's your job to decide such matters. Oh, and he was apparently also guilty of the heinous crime of observing that such a practice might help to de-mystify and de-eroticize the biology of sex and help defuse the "If you keep it all hushed up, they'll only want it more" phenomenon which is sometimes at work in the adolescent discovery of sex.

This, apparently, is the extent of Popcak's crimes against the Faith. And for this, a nucleus of embittered malcontents thinks the solution is to defame him. Now some have observed that Popcak is not above criticism. Quite so. And if the Spastic Sphincter Tribunal had written (or defended) a measured response saying, "Popcak, for all his good work, might have considered just not mentioning this rather curious practice" I would have no problem (though I can see nothing intrinsically immoral about it). But let's get real. The purpose of this article was not to suggest that Popcak is a faithful brother in Christ who mentioned a couple of curious ideas in passing. It was to a) practice the art of Catholic Character Assassination and b) as ever, to launch yet another fusillade against JPII, his damn newfangled Theology of the Body, EWTN, Hahn, and all rest of the wicked apostate neo-Catholics.

One of my readers, bless her heart, at least had the good grace to cite the passage in question from Popcak's writing and acknowledge that he was not saying what the Character Assassins for Christ claimed he was saying. But amazingly, other readers were in a snit with me for defending Popcak's good name. Can't a Character Assassin for Christ have *any* fun without judgmental people like me pointing out the thin-lipped phariseeism and lust for condemnation? What a killjoy!

And, of course, a number of people persisted in the false notion that I was arraigning all people who are fond of more conservative expressions of piety as "Lidless Eyes". Allow me to introduce you to my good friends Pete Vere and Shawn McElhinney, two quite "Traditionalist" types whom I am quite happy to call friends. Why? Because they don't go around looking to drum fellow Catholics out of the Church for using the wrong buzzwords and for not having a problem with JPII. They will, like me, *defend* fellow Catholics from self-appointed Inquisitors (a consequence of Just War theory). But they don't feel the peculiar itch to cobble together Character Assassination for Christ campaigns, nor to damn the Pope and all his teachings at every opportunity. If you self-identify as a "traditionalist" but don't share in these sins either, you are not who I am referring to when I speak of Lidless Eye types. If you feel that peculiar itch to hunger and thirst after the condemnation of brother and sister Catholics (or other human beings) on the flimsiest provocation, then perhaps this blog isn't for you.
posted by Mark Shea at 7:56 AM

4 posted on 08/21/2003 3:07:55 PM PDT by Akron Al
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Akron Al; NYer; Salvation; sandyeggo; sitetest; ninenot
the Spastic Sphincter Tribunal

I like this better than the Tridentine Taliban. Much better.

It appears that Shea and Fr. Johanssen monitor this site very closely, and have reduced the UltraTrads to an ecclesiastical version of South Park.

LOL!!!!

5 posted on 08/21/2003 3:27:34 PM PDT by sinkspur (Get two dogs and be part of a pack!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: NYer; Salvation; sandyeggo; ninenot
Fr. Rob: Mark, just ignore these Freeper RadTrad kooks. There are only 9 people involved in this "discussion". I used to pay attention, but then I realized I was reading the ravings of the same small group of nutjobs.

RadTraddy-Laddy: Ha! Got you, Fr. Rob! There are 10 people in this Freeper thread. [sticking his tongue out] So there! Besides, you're just a Novus Ordo priest (and therefore a dupe of Karol Wojtyla) so we don't have to listen to you!

We've got a much larger audience here in the Colisseum than I realized.

And they've got the Spastic Sphincters pegged!

6 posted on 08/21/2003 3:30:22 PM PDT by sinkspur (Get two dogs and be part of a pack!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Akron Al; Alberta's Child; Aloysius; AniGrrl; Antoninus; As you well know...; BBarcaro; ...
PING.

Nobody came out of this one looking good.
7 posted on 08/21/2003 3:34:47 PM PDT by Loyalist
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
Dear sinskpur,

I'm pretty sure that no one will mistake me for a "traditionalist", but I'm with Rod Dreher on this one. If the gentleman, Mr. Popcak, actually suggested that it might be permissible that brothers chart their sisters, then... ICK. ICK ICK.

ICK ICK ICK.

sitetest

8 posted on 08/21/2003 3:38:30 PM PDT by sitetest (And I'd just eaten dinner. Oh boy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Akron Al
Ha Ha Ha..I was the one who researched, found, and posted the lyrics to Laudon Wainright's "Dead Skunk in the Middle of the Road."

It had to do with NACHE vs the Catholic Home Schooling Movement, the coup led by Scott Hahn's wife and their rejcting the sound counsel of Fr. John A Hardon. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with NFP. Ha Ha Ha...

. But, what does accuracy mean when one wants to mock a supposed "trad," which is something I do not call myself.

I wonder what is used for incense at the Mass the author attends? He sounds rather, er,disoriented

9 posted on 08/21/2003 3:38:51 PM PDT by As you well know...
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
Well, truthfully, I said on the thread that I thought going into detail with teenagers about NFP was strange.

But, there's nothing wrong with Popcak's theology (it is JPII's Theology of the Body, after all), or with Scott Hahn.

I was just surprised to see Shea and Johanssen take off after our Traddies.

10 posted on 08/21/2003 3:43:22 PM PDT by sinkspur (Get two dogs and be part of a pack!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
Dear sinkspur,

I only glanced at the original thread, so I can't really comment with assurance. But is this quote from Mr. Popcak accurate, in context?

"You will have to decide whether having boys record their sister's or mother's temperatures is an option for your family, but as long as the person whose chart it is (the mother or sister) is not terribly opposed to the idea (you really have to respect her opinion on this), I feel favorably toward the idea because it decreases the chances that your young teens will eroticize their sexuality."

Personally, the idea seems to me to be... demented. Like a cruel, sick joke on all involved.

I'm just having a hard time wrapping my rather limited little intolerant mind around this.

sitetest

11 posted on 08/21/2003 3:47:43 PM PDT by sitetest (Charting your mom or your sister?? I will have nightmares for days... shudder...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
He did say that. And it IS weird.
12 posted on 08/21/2003 3:56:10 PM PDT by sinkspur (Get two dogs and be part of a pack!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Loyalist
Nobody came out of this one looking good.

That's the understatement of the year.

13 posted on 08/21/2003 4:02:39 PM PDT by sockmonkey
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Akron Al
I don't think it's fair to label Dreher a "neocon," in either the political or religious sense of the word. He's a "crunchy conservative."
14 posted on 08/21/2003 4:03:45 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (+ Vive Jesus! (Live Jesus!) +)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
Dear sinkspur,

If it is in context, it's really difficult for me to imagine a reasoned defense for Mr. Popcak.

Frankly, I am so appalled by the comment, by the idea, that it makes me think to entirely discount anything and everything the gentleman has ever said or written. I thought perhaps that I was overreacting, so I asked my wife, who is, of course, a saint on earth, what she thought.

She disagreed strongly with my reaction, which was "ICK".

She emphatically states that the appropriate reaction is "EEEEWWWWW!! EEEEWWWWW!! EEEEWWWW!!"

I stand corrected.

sitetest

15 posted on 08/21/2003 4:07:31 PM PDT by sitetest (I know I'm not a very good person 'n' all, but even I can figure out that this is wrong.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Loyalist
I am hardly a radtrad but I admit I felt quite creeped out. And no my lips aren't thin and my eyes aren't lidless. NFP certainly has its place for Catholics but this seems to turn it almost into a cult. It's like the tail wagging the dog.
16 posted on 08/21/2003 4:32:54 PM PDT by k omalley
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: As you well know...
"I wonder what is used for incense..."

ROFLOL!
And for the record, I attend the N.O.(and I suspect there were one or two others who don't have a Latin Mass nearby or prefer the N.O. on that thread.)
17 posted on 08/21/2003 4:40:45 PM PDT by Domestic Church (AMDG...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Akron Al
Same old liberal crap.

Take a legitimate concern, and pretend that it could only be grounded in anhedonia.
18 posted on 08/21/2003 5:52:16 PM PDT by dsc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sitetest; sinkspur
Wierd and demented are not accurate.

Perverted is accurate. This guy has a psychiatric problem; I would more than likely shoot him rather than allow him in my yard. (I have children.)

19 posted on 08/21/2003 6:16:37 PM PDT by ninenot (Democrats make mistakes. RINOs don't correct them.--Chesterton (adapted by Ninenot))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: ninenot; sinkspur; k omalley; sitetest
We are not radtrads either. Heck, my wife even enjoyed her share of guitar masses back in the 70's. She now watches a good deal more EWTN than I do and often uses it for background noise. She'd never heard of Popcek, but as his subject of expertise isn't of particular interest to her she wasn't surprised. The very night of the day I showed her that thread on that whole brother charting his sister's temps she called me into the room around 11 pm, "Honey, come quick, THAT SEX FIEND'S on EWTN!"

I have to say his little talk (less than 5 minutes in between two half hour shows) was completely unmemorable. But I also have to say that we'll be looking for him.

Like you sitetest, I'd question anything this man says.
20 posted on 08/21/2003 6:44:11 PM PDT by old and tired
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
This whole thing is actually heartbreaking. Imagine a recent convert-mom with teenage kids reading through this after seeing Popcak on EWTN or hearing him on the radio. She stumbles upon this passage:

"You will have to decide whether having boys record their sister's or mother's temperatures is an option for your family, but as long as the person whose chart it is (the mother or sister) is not terribly opposed to the idea (you really have to respect her opinion on this), I feel favorably toward the idea because it decreases the chances that your young teens will eroticize their sexuality."

The poor woman is liable to think that this craziness actually represents Catholicism. You will have to decide whether having boys record their sister's or mother's temperatures is an option for your family... Popcak actually makes it sound as if it is an issue all Catholic families address.

"Well, Martha, Patrick turns 14 this year. Do you think we should have him chart Margaret this year?"

This is NOT a conversation Catholic families I know HAVE EVER HAD. This bizzarre S*** will scare potential converts off permanently.

This guy is nuts. Nuts. Like you., i read it to my wife and she said "creepy." If this guys was just a DRE in Toledo, we could ignore it. But he is on EWTN and constantly engaged in self-promotion. Scary.

21 posted on 08/21/2003 7:36:10 PM PDT by Diago
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Akron Al
This was posted by a priest? What is the priesthood coming to?

Now that I think of it, Fr. Rob Johanssen, wasn't he the priest who was attacking Michael Rose? I thought his bishop shut down his blog before he got sued for libel.
22 posted on 08/21/2003 7:36:50 PM PDT by Maximilian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Maximilian
Now that I think of it, Fr. Rob Johanssen, wasn't he the priest who was attacking Michael Rose?

Michael Rose, with Deal Hudson, is on the board that sponsors Popcak.

23 posted on 08/21/2003 7:42:41 PM PDT by sinkspur (Get two dogs and be part of a pack!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
Well, truthfully, I said on the thread that I thought going into detail with teenagers about NFP was strange.

Going into detail at that age in and of itself isn't strange. I knew all about it in 7th grade more or less because I babysat at a house where the parents were instructors and I heard the spiel one night when they were teaching. Didn't bug me then, and didn't in 9th and 10th grade when we learned it in school - from priest, no less.

What's creepy and definitely disgusting is the entire notion that parents would ask their kids to do it and, even worse, have brothers read their sisters' charts. My brothers would have given my parents some of the worst looks if that was even suggested. Some things just weren't discussed.
24 posted on 08/21/2003 7:43:30 PM PDT by Desdemona
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Akron Al
Allow me to introduce you to my good friends Pete Vere and Shawn McElhinney, two quite "Traditionalist" types whom I am quite happy to call friends.

This is actually what started the whole discussion -- when I pointed out that in another thread posted by Diago these guys were claiming to be traditionalists when they are not; they are anti-traditionalists. Pete Vere seems to be making a career out of attacking traditionalists. The other 2 only do it for fun on an amateur basis, apparently.

Because they don't go around looking to drum fellow Catholics out of the Church for using the wrong buzzwords

Seems to me that this is precisely what they spend their time doing. Does anyone else besides me see the irony of someone having blogs named "spastic sphincter" and "lidless eye" while at the same time trying to put on an attitude of wounded innocence?

25 posted on 08/21/2003 7:43:50 PM PDT by Maximilian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Akron Al
Wow, it's like having a glimpse into Catholic hell.
26 posted on 08/21/2003 7:45:03 PM PDT by TradicalRC (You guys need to put some stuff on your about page...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
Michael Rose, with Deal Hudson, is on the board that sponsors Popcak.

Rose and Hudson were both on the board of Catholic Citizens of Illinois that posted the Popcak article on their website. This was an article exposing the weirdness of Popcak, not sponsoring him.

27 posted on 08/21/2003 7:47:11 PM PDT by Maximilian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Maximilian
This was an article exposing the weirdness of Popcak, not sponsoring him.

OK. I misunderstood.

28 posted on 08/21/2003 7:49:56 PM PDT by sinkspur (Get two dogs and be part of a pack!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Akron Al
On the other hand, this is actually very reassuring. If you thought that your contributions were just dropping into the ether unheard and with no impact on the world, a response like this makes it clear that your reactions to these threads can have some impact.
29 posted on 08/21/2003 7:50:16 PM PDT by Maximilian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
OK. I misunderstood.

I had the same misunderstanding at first when this was posted on the previous thread.

30 posted on 08/21/2003 7:51:09 PM PDT by Maximilian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
Obviously, Mr. Popcak was just asking for it when he made those comments, but I think you all are WAY over-reacting. What do y'all think about Mother Theresa, who taught everyone she could NFP--right there on the streets? When you learn NFP, whether through the Billings Method or sympto-thermal, etc., you cannot help but have the most profound respect for the sex act, and the sheer miracle that the creation of ANY life is!
31 posted on 08/21/2003 7:52:04 PM PDT by GOP_Thug_Mom (ad majorem dei gloriam!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: GOP_Thug_Mom
Mr. Popcak was just asking for it when he made those comments, but I think you all are WAY over-reacting.

You may be right, but did you read the original article regarding Popcak? It was more than a couple of comments. Here is the link:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/966863/posts

32 posted on 08/21/2003 7:59:29 PM PDT by Maximilian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Diago; sinkspur; sitetest
No, Diago, what's HEART BREAKING is nearly half of the Catholics who receive Our Lord in Holy Communion are C-O-N-T-R-A-C-E-P-T-I-N-G!!!!

If you want to go back to a key slippery slope in our history, the Episcopalian conference (forgot the name of it) in 1928-29 that decided contraception was okay in extreme circumstances was the beginning of what we have today. Up until that point, every Christian denomination had condemned ANY form of birth control as Onanism. So, while all the Christians were being "good, modest and upright", by not going into all the gory details, their children and grandchildren were learning all about contracepting from the enemies of life.
33 posted on 08/21/2003 8:07:15 PM PDT by GOP_Thug_Mom (ad majorem dei gloriam!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Akron Al; Loyalist
I was the first one to make the incest comment. I guess I am famous.

These 'gentlemen' certainly are obsessed with us. Interesting. Have they signed up? I'd have much more respect for the lot of them if they came here to debate us instead of hiding over there on their own little blogs like spineless cowards.

I've been a Registered Nurse for over 14 years. Most of my experience is in pediatrics: psych and ER. I have Master's level credits towards a Marriage and Family Therapy degree in addition to extensive self-study and my own personal work. If Popcak and friends want to come over here and debate me fair and square regarding the behaviors he advocates, I'm ready and willing.

Consider this your invitation gentlemen.
34 posted on 08/21/2003 8:08:32 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah (Hes [Arnold] not as conservative as you think, [Maria]Shriver assured ABCs Meredith Vieira)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: old and tired
Dear old and tired,

My wife has read articles by this fellow, and is rather shocked by this stuff cited here. She says he's usually quite orthodox, even a bit stuffy.

I don't really understand what's going on.


sitetest
35 posted on 08/21/2003 8:26:02 PM PDT by sitetest
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: GOP_Thug_Mom
Dear GTM,

"Obviously, Mr. Popcak was just asking for it when he made those comments, but I think you all are WAY over-reacting. What do y'all think about Mother Theresa, who taught everyone she could NFP--right there on the streets? When you learn NFP, whether through the Billings Method or sympto-thermal, etc., you cannot help but have the most profound respect for the sex act, and the sheer miracle that the creation of ANY life is! "

Hey, I think NFP is real cool, too. But if you were to ask me at, say, 15, to chart my sister, I'd have likely either run screaming in terror, or beaten the daylights out of you. We are talking about WAY weird and creepy.

And the thought of one of my sons charting my wife...

It leaves me speechless.

I remember being taught that a husband and wife doing NFP together creates more intimacy between husband and wife, and deepens the marital bond.

So why on God's green earth would I want my SON to engage in such marital intimacy-inducing behavior with his SISTER or his MOTHER????

Give me a break!

Sorry, I just can't get from here to there. It seems to be to be gross, perverted, immoral, bizarre, and things to which I can't even give names.


sitetest
36 posted on 08/21/2003 8:27:02 PM PDT by sitetest (Just because this is good for HUSBAND and WIFE doesn't mean it is good between BROTHER and SISTER.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Maximilian
I went and read it. I'll admit he comes off as a "modernist" (from reading the definition), but what everyone here is arguing about is something that SHOULD BE DISCUSSED by ALL Catholics. I spent 10 years doing pro-life work. I learned quickly the origination of the abortion mindset--the contracepting mentality that says, "Sex is for enjoyment, not babies".

To give you my own personal story--I'm 37, my mother is 65. 15 years ago, when my sister got married, I gave her an NFP book at her bridal shower. My mother later called to chastise me for giving her something like that(after assuring my sister I was out of line.) She said it was none of my business. My mother used rhythm, and was in NO WAY for any birth control, as it is against Church Teaching. She just thought I was being "immodest" by giving that to her. I later discovered my sister was on the pill. And imagine how I felt when I went to the hospital on the joyous occasion of the birth of her 3rd child, only to learn that she was being prepped for a tubal ligation.

When everyone refuses to discuss real, moral alternatives to contracepting, where does it leave the nominal Catholics?? I guess they'll be left to suffer the consequences of doing things the "worldly" way.
37 posted on 08/21/2003 8:41:37 PM PDT by GOP_Thug_Mom (ad majorem dei gloriam!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Maximilian
This strange response from Father Johansen has to be somewhat of a vindication for Michael Rose. From reading his post, this priest is almost as strange as Popcak. It is also a dishonest response.

Every Catholic I have talked to thinks Popcak words are creepy - - not just traditionalists. My mother would likely vomit if I mentioned this to her and she has not been to a Latin Mass in years. As Al pointes out, Rod Dreher's response was "ICK!" Sinkspur similarly sees these comments as un-Catholic and not worth of a defense.

Mark Shea saught to deflect attention from Popcak's strangeness by trying to pin this thing on the traditionalists. Father "Rob" followed suit.

But make no mistake, if I quoted Popcak's comments to all twenty Catholic couples on my block, each and every one of them would laugh in my face. And only half of them even attend Mass on Sunday, not quite radtrads.

38 posted on 08/21/2003 8:45:25 PM PDT by Diago
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: GOP_Thug_Mom
"When everyone refuses to discuss real, moral alternatives to contracepting, where does it leave the nominal Catholics?"

Hey, you want to have adults discussing NFP in an appropriate context and forum, GREAT!

You want to talk about involving adolescents...

I'll go with EEEEEWWWWWW.
39 posted on 08/21/2003 9:34:21 PM PDT by dsc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Akron Al
I see that now Popcak has explained his charting comment on Shea's Blogspot.
He mentions Love and Responsibility. I read that book, and I didn't come away with the conclusion that Popcak did.
As a Mother, and a former child, I find the whole making charting a family affair pretty creepy.
I am assuming he has never mentioned this idea on EWTN radio or television. I certainly couldn't see this particular idea translating into: "Oh, that's such a great idea. I'm going to send EWTN a big fat donation right after I tell Johnny and Suzie to get a notebook and a thermometer."


40 posted on 08/21/2003 10:07:28 PM PDT by sockmonkey
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
But if you were to ask me at, say, 15, to chart my sister, I'd have likely either run screaming in terror, or beaten the daylights out of you.

Now imagine how your sister would have felt. "Oh joy, it's time to tell my horny teenaged brother what my temperature is down there." Gag. Ick!

41 posted on 08/22/2003 4:14:47 AM PDT by hellinahandcart
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: GOP_Thug_Mom
Dear GTM,

I think that your argument falls into the fallacy of the complex question. You are tying two things, though related, which are different. The two things that you are tying are: 1) General instruction about NFP and communicating openly to others about NFP; 2) The practice of permitting one's sons to chart their mother or sisters.

I don't think most folks here are condemning the first, which is what your responses appear to try to counter. But I think there is some consensus here that the second is appalling.

I don't have a problem with age-appropriate instruction about NFP. I'll start it myself with my own guys, when the time is right. I don't have a problem with sharing about one's experiences with adult children, especially if they were engaged, and had practical questions. I think that these are good things.

As well, my wife and I have engaged our friends and family about the subject of NFP on more than one occasion. We encourage others to give consideration to the use of NFP, we discuss with them the contraceptive mentality, etc.

But the specific practice of permitting one's sons to chart their mother or sister strikes me as so bizarre and disgusting that it makes me question the judgement of anyone who would not express at least some significant negative reservations about it. Even a lukewarm endorsement of this particular practice strikes me as wholly unacceptable.

At least in Mr. Popcak's defense, his response on the Mark Shea blog responds to precisely this point, rather than making things murky by seeming to accuse those who stand against the practice as generally being opposed to teaching teenagers and young adults about NFP. At least Mr. Popcak gets the objection, and doesn't distort it.

And part of his self-defense is that his lukewarm endorsement of the practice (and it is only lukewarm) is an exceedingly small part of his volume of work. This is also true, and a fair thing to say in his self-defense.

But, for me at least, though Mr. Popcak's endorsement of the practice is not ringing, and is rather tentative, nonetheless, he endorses the practice, and that is beyond my small, little, intolerant (evil neoCatholic Novus Ordoite) mind. To me, it is so far from a prudent, sane, legitimate view, that it makes me question his judgement otherwise.


sitetest
42 posted on 08/22/2003 5:55:56 AM PDT by sitetest (But I'm sure Mr. Popcak is a great guy, otherwise.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: sitetest; GOP_Thug_Mom
Sitetest has perfectly summed up my thoughts on this subject, but he has put it so much more eloquently than I ever could.

I saw on Mark Shea's Blog that Mr. Popcak is accepting emails and I think I will ask him why he thinks regulation of pregnancies is such a life skill that it is ok to be taught between brothers and sisters. Personally, we tried to encourage vocations in our teenagers, and also pound in the notion that any sex act could result in a child. I am disturbed that he knows "several families" who do this brother/sister charting thing.
43 posted on 08/22/2003 6:28:30 AM PDT by old and tired
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
I liked your tagline!

I think this whole incident is simply the work of the Devil. First, he tempts a man who generally offers strong support to Catholic families in living holy lives, to a bizarre lapse of judgment. (For the record, I agree with those who said ICK and those who said EEW!)

Then he leads many others who are likely very holy people most of the time, to jump in a frenzy shouting, "See! This proves that anyone who's ever disagreed with me about anything is Totally Dead Wrong. Nanny-nanny-boo-boo!"

St. Paul tells us that any factionalism, infighting, or self-seeking among Christians is not worthy of Our Lord. We should all keep in mind who benefits (hint - it's not Christ!) when Christians engage in these attacks on one another.
44 posted on 08/22/2003 7:00:08 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Pray for Terri Schiavo!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Diago; Maximilian; sinkspur
If our dear Sinky sees something as beyond the pale ... ITS BEYOND THE PALE!!!

BTW, here's Fr. Rob's homepage. Perhaps Sinky can comment on him devoting a section of it to cigars. Fr. Rob certainly doesn't look like he is hurting for food.

45 posted on 08/22/2003 7:08:47 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
very well said
46 posted on 08/22/2003 7:21:25 AM PDT by As you well know...
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Maximilian
"This was posted by a priest? What is the priesthood coming to?"

Same thoughts (followed by prayer for him.)

The internet holds great potential for his anointed hands to lead and heal and I hope he finds this out soon.
47 posted on 08/22/2003 7:52:00 AM PDT by Domestic Church (AMDG...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Hermann the Cherusker
Dear Hermann,

I'm not hurting for food, either. And it is the source of more than one cross which I attempt to carry daily.


sitetest
48 posted on 08/22/2003 8:16:38 AM PDT by sitetest (Jesus fell three times. If I could fall just three times a day, or per HOUR, sometimes...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Domestic Church
I agree. It is disturbing.
49 posted on 08/22/2003 9:32:42 AM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah (Hes [Arnold] not as conservative as you think, [Maria]Shriver assured ABCs Meredith Vieira)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: sinkspur
It seem's Patrick Madrid has been cruising through the Religion Forum and posted a link to this thread over on his blog. Here's an opportunity to see what others think of you ... or is it us? ... whatever.

CATHOLICS KICK IT UP A NOTCH

So far, no one is commenting. They're probably still skimming through your posts.

50 posted on 08/22/2003 10:49:52 AM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-81 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson