When Worlds Collide! RadTraddyLand Meets St. Blogs - Priest defends strange Popcak comments

http://www.thrownback.blogspot.com/2003_08_17_thrownback_archive.html#106144691180028909 ^ | August 20, 2003 | Fr. Rob Johansen

[hellinahandcart]

But if you were to ask me at, say, 15, to chart my sister, I'd have likely either run screaming in terror, or beaten the daylights out of you.

Now imagine how your sister would have felt. "Oh joy, it's time to tell my horny teenaged brother what my temperature is down there." Gag. Ick!

[sitetest]

Dear GTM,

I think that your argument falls into the fallacy of the complex question. You are tying two things, though related, which are different. The two things that you are tying are: 1) General instruction about NFP and communicating openly to others about NFP; 2) The practice of permitting one's sons to chart their mother or sisters.

I don't think most folks here are condemning the first, which is what your responses appear to try to counter. But I think there is some consensus here that the second is appalling.

I don't have a problem with age-appropriate instruction about NFP. I'll start it myself with my own guys, when the time is right. I don't have a problem with sharing about one's experiences with adult children, especially if they were engaged, and had practical questions. I think that these are good things.

As well, my wife and I have engaged our friends and family about the subject of NFP on more than one occasion. We encourage others to give consideration to the use of NFP, we discuss with them the contraceptive mentality, etc.

But the specific practice of permitting one's sons to chart their mother or sister strikes me as so bizarre and disgusting that it makes me question the judgement of anyone who would not express at least some significant negative reservations about it. Even a lukewarm endorsement of this particular practice strikes me as wholly unacceptable.

At least in Mr. Popcak's defense, his response on the Mark Shea blog responds to precisely this point, rather than making things murky by seeming to accuse those who stand against the practice as generally being opposed to teaching teenagers and young adults about NFP. At least Mr. Popcak gets the objection, and doesn't distort it.

And part of his self-defense is that his lukewarm endorsement of the practice (and it is only lukewarm) is an exceedingly small part of his volume of work. This is also true, and a fair thing to say in his self-defense.

But, for me at least, though Mr. Popcak's endorsement of the practice is not ringing, and is rather tentative, nonetheless, he endorses the practice, and that is beyond my small, little, intolerant (evil neoCatholic Novus Ordoite) mind. To me, it is so far from a prudent, sane, legitimate view, that it makes me question his judgement otherwise.


sitetest

[old and tired]

Sitetest has perfectly summed up my thoughts on this subject, but he has put it so much more eloquently than I ever could.

I saw on Mark Shea's Blog that Mr. Popcak is accepting emails and I think I will ask him why he thinks regulation of pregnancies is such a life skill that it is ok to be taught between brothers and sisters. Personally, we tried to encourage vocations in our teenagers, and also pound in the notion that any sex act could result in a child. I am disturbed that he knows "several families" who do this brother/sister charting thing.

[Tax-chick]

I liked your tagline!

I think this whole incident is simply the work of the Devil. First, he tempts a man who generally offers strong support to Catholic families in living holy lives, to a bizarre lapse of judgment. (For the record, I agree with those who said ICK and those who said EEW!)

Then he leads many others who are likely very holy people most of the time, to jump in a frenzy shouting, "See! This proves that anyone who's ever disagreed with me about anything is Totally Dead Wrong. Nanny-nanny-boo-boo!"

St. Paul tells us that any factionalism, infighting, or self-seeking among Christians is not worthy of Our Lord. We should all keep in mind who benefits (hint - it's not Christ!) when Christians engage in these attacks on one another.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

If our dear Sinky sees something as beyond the pale ... ITS BEYOND THE PALE!!!

BTW, here's Fr. Rob's homepage. Perhaps Sinky can comment on him devoting a section of it to cigars. Fr. Rob certainly doesn't look like he is hurting for food.

[As you well know...]

very well said

[Domestic Church]

"This was posted by a priest? What is the priesthood coming to?"

Same thoughts (followed by prayer for him.)

The internet holds great potential for his anointed hands to lead and heal and I hope he finds this out soon.

[sitetest]

Dear Hermann,

I'm not hurting for food, either. And it is the source of more than one cross which I attempt to carry daily.


sitetest

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I agree. It is disturbing.

[NYer]

It seem's Patrick Madrid has been cruising through the Religion Forum and posted a link to this thread over on his blog. Here's an opportunity to see what others think of you ... or is it us? ... whatever.

CATHOLICS KICK IT UP A NOTCH

So far, no one is commenting. They're probably still skimming through your posts.

[Pyro7480]

Jim Robinson "banishes" religious threads to this forum, and the result is that the Religion Forum becomes a major resource for the debate within the Catholic church? Who would have thought... ;-)

[ThomasMore]

Neither was St. Thomas Aquinas. I think we should get off the fat jokes. Holy clergy come in all sizes. :^)

[old and tired]

I thought I would post Popcak's defense from Shea's blog.
(note: the whole letter is longer. I'm just posting the relevant part. Sitetest has already provided an accurate summary.)

A Note from Greg Popcak Regarding Questions About His Work

Dear Friends,

I wanted to take a brief moment to respond to some of the concerns that have been expressed about my work. The following is by no means intended to be a complete response, and in fact, the best response I can make has already been written in the seven books I have penned. If you want to know what I think, go read them. Rather, this is intended to assist those with legitimate questions and who are seeking the truth, as opposed to those who would rather wallow in gossip, and lies. If you are the former, I invite your further questions. If you are the latter, let's not waste our time.

1. The Brother/Sister charting question.

The paragraph in question has been reprinted on this blog, so I will not repost it here.

First, I genuinely could not care less if you use this technique in your family or not. The ONLY reason I included it in the book is that I was aware that some families, with mature children, are already doing this. I felt it would be a service to those families to provide guidelines regarding modesty and propriety so that such a technique could be done in the most respectful way possible.

I do feel somewhat favorably toward it because--done properly and respectfully--it can demystify the sexual cycle, and the Holy Father tells us, in Love and Responsibility (c.f., the section on Sexology), that giving such information about both the goodness of the body and how the body functions is a good and useful thing. However, I also understand that some children are not mature enough to handle such an execise, and some families would not think it appropriate. This is why I leave it to parental discretion. I stand by what I wrote.

Personally, I cannot say whether I would ever use such a technique in my own family or not. It would require prayer and consultation with my wife, and would have to take into account the psychological maturity of my children.

If you choose to use this idea, fine--just please be mindful of modesty and propriety. If, alternatively, the idea offends you, then ignore it altogether. It is one paragraph in a two-hundred-plus page book and the rest of the work hardly stands or falls on the one idea, which did not even originate with me, but rather, was the idea of many other families. And because I respect the wisdom of families, who are the first teachers, and not just professionals, who are--at best--helpers, I included the idea, with appropriate cautions.

[Pyro7480]

They had to cut out part of Thomas' desk so that he could write properly!

[ventana]

The fact that the guy reiterates the brother sister thing is a leading indicator of weirdness. Brother and sister should have nothing to do with each other in this arena and instead of reiterating it he ought to be spending time urging these families to seek help. V's wife.

[old and tired]

I agree, but what actually impressed me most about his letter is his claim that "many families" are doing this whole brother/sister charting thing. It sort of makes you wonder about the circles he travels in.

[ventana]

Talk about the near occasion of sin, Father Hardon would be scandalized by this. V's wife.

[ArrogantBustard]

Personally, I cannot say whether I would ever use such a technique in my own family or not. It would require prayer and consultation with my wife, and would have to take into account the psychological maturity of my children.

Bleh. Yuck. It shouldn't take a great deal of prayer and consultation to realize that encouraging a 'spousal' relationship between mothers and sons or brothers and sisters is a bad idea regardless of the "psychological maturity" of the persons involved. I can't help noticing the subtle slam on his critics, here. The paragraph implies that if one disagrees with his idea, or considers it repulsive, inappropriate, or sick, one is simply "psychologically immature". And of course, we can disregard the reactionary opinions of the mentally underdeveloped.

[sockmonkey]

I agree, but what actually impressed me most about his letter is his claim that "many families" are doing this whole brother/sister charting thing. It sort of makes you wonder about the circles he travels in.

I'm not sure if Morticia and Gomez are Catholic, but I was thinking that even the Addams family would be creeped out by this brother/sister charting idea.

[old and tired]

I'm starting to feel sorry for old Popcak. I'm beginning to think that he really doesn't get out much. And as an expert in the field of NFP he is so immersed in it he starts to become removed from its reality. He's somehow forgotten that there is a time and a place for NFP and teenage siblings ain't it where it's supposed to be.

The best analogy I can come up with is when your kids are small you get so used to changing diapers, eventually you can do it right in the middle of dinner without skipping a mouthful. Should you take the child out of the room, change him, wash your hands thorougly, and then proceed with eating? Of course. But if we're all honest with ourselves, is that what we did every time?

That said, I'm still going to pay extra close attention everytime I see him on EWTN.