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To: lockeliberty
Two years before his death what do we hear from Paul? "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I laid hold of by Christ Jesus."

I was just waiting for this. The NRSV renders this verse as "Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal..." But if you really want to use a translation that renders it as "already become perfect," let's see what the KJV says three verses down: "Let us, therefore, as many as be perfect be thus minded..." (In all fairness, the NRSV renders it as "Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you." At the same time, rendering the word as 'mature' instead of 'perfect' doesn't substantially change the meaning of things, since we understand 'perfect' in this verse to mean a 'complete' or 'full-grown' person--these are actual definitions for the word 'perfect' in English and for the term used in the Greek.) According to several commentators, the way that the Greek word rendered 'already become perfect' in v. 12 is used is as an idiom taken from sporting events, used to indicate 'completing a course,' hence the NRSV translation.

Funny, if there was any human who I would think could be "perfect" it would be the Apostle Paul.

Oh, but he does claim to be perfect: read Phil. 3:15. ;)

Throughout his epistles he continually emphasizes the Christian life as a race or battle. He makes it sound as if it were a race in which the finish line is in the near distance and yet he knows that he will not complete his perfection until he falls dead on that finish line. Here's my concern. When we decide we are perfectly sanctified do we quit the race? Is there anything left to battle? Have we accomplished all there is in this life?

Of course not. There is still temptation to fight, there is still a war going on outside--the battle's just won on the inside (assuming one keeps that state). We are able to focus more on the things of God, and God Himself, since we don't have anything within us getting in the way.

The biggest problem is, of course, now that we have declared ourselves perfect, all those less than perfect Christians. It seems the only task left for us then is to continually judge those "carnal" Christians and rebuke them for failing to acheive that perfect state.

I fail to see how that would be loving, which is exactly what a 'perfect' Christian is. Hence, I think it unreasonable to assume that a person who claimed Christian perfection and yet behaved this way was telling the truth any more than I assume that a person who calls himself a Christian is telling the truth when he doesn't live it.

Ah yes. That Wesleyian love I've heard so much about.

You sinner! You added an i to the word Wesleyan! You'll burn in hell if you don't shape up! ;P (I'm teasing.)

11 posted on 10/04/2003 12:12:15 AM PDT by The Grammarian
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To: The Grammarian
ll: Throughout his epistles he continually emphasizes the Christian life as a race or battle. He makes it sound as if it were a race in which the finish line is in the near distance and yet he knows that he will not complete his perfection until he falls dead on that finish line. Here's my concern. When we decide we are perfectly sanctified do we quit the race? Is there anything left to battle? Have we accomplished all there is in this life?

TG: Of course not. There is still temptation to fight, there is still a war going on outside--the battle's just won on the inside (assuming one keeps that state). We are able to focus more on the things of God, and God Himself, since we don't have anything within us getting in the way.

Read your thoughts again. I see an explicit contradiction in it. Why would I have to fight external temptation if my internal condition is whole? If I were "entirely sanctified" then any external temptation would never affect my internal condition. The mere fact that one can move in and out of entire sanctification is in itself contradictory. If I reach a state of perfection I can ward off any external temptations perfectly. It would be impossible for me to fall for any external temptation because of the "nirvana" of internal perfection, a state of being that has reached a state of perfection and once that state is reached the possibility of falling out of the state is impossible because how can perfection be tainted since it necessitates the ability to perfectly subscribe to all moral good at all times regardless of temptation and thus a state that once reached is incapable of anything less than perfection.

The real life problem with such piety is that we are so concentrated on the inner man we forget to live within the world and create the Kingdom of God which is our task. This Kingdom is not merely a spiritual Kingdom but one that extends to all areas of our life. We live in the temporal world and God calls us to take dominion over it. If our concentration is focused soley on the inner man we disobey God's command to take dominion over his creation.

Finally, the doctrine of entire sanctification diminishes faith and leads to spiritual pride. The fact that our flesh is weak and full of sin should lead to a humility and deeper faith that relies upon God's power and not our own. If we falsely believe that we have reached a state of sinless perfection then we no longer need to rely on God but can seem satisfied in our own accomplishment. This sort of attitude strikes against the entire gospel that calls us to rely soley on Christ and not our own deeds and to exalt in our weakness because it exalts Christ.

"And he has said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.' Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me."

ps If perfect spelling and grammar are required for entire sanctification I shall never reach that state. ;)
15 posted on 10/04/2003 11:12:15 AM PDT by lockeliberty (simul justus et peccator)
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