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It's OK If Ron Paul Is Right
TSC Daily ^ | 5/18/07 | Gregory Scoblete

Posted on 05/18/2007 8:13:13 AM PDT by traviskicks

Quixotic presidential candidate Ron Paul landed himself in a bit of hot water - make that a boiling cauldron - for remarks he made in last week's GOP debate suggesting that America's containment of Saddam Hussein led to 9/11.

Responding to a question about whether Paul was blaming America for the 9/11 attacks, he stated: "They don't come here to attack us because we're rich and we're free. They come and they attack us because we're over there."

Mayor Giuliani interjected in high dudgeon sending the crowd, and later conservative pundits, to their feet. But what Ron Paul said is, in fact, utterly uncontroversial and utterly true. Nowhere did Paul suggest ala Ward Churchill that the U.S. deserved to be attacked, he merely sought to explain the motives of those who attacked us. His explanation was certainly incomplete and a bit ham-handed, but it was not inaccurate or blatantly false.

In fact, if Ron Paul was "blaming the victim" as Mayor Giuliani indignantly implied, then he is in the company of such notorious America-haters as the current President of the United States, the former Assistant Secretary of Defense, the editorial boards of the Weekly Standard and Wall Street Journal, and many, many conservative pundits and intellectuals.

Cause & Effect

In a now famous November 6, 2003 address, President Bush explicitly linked U.S. policy with the rise of Islamic terrorism:

"Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe -- because in the long run, stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty. As long as the Middle East remains a place where freedom does not flourish, it will remain a place of stagnation, resentment, and violence ready for export."

This "accommodation" takes many forms, from the generous subsidies to the Mubarak regime in Egypt to the protection of the Saudi "royal" family and other Gulf potentates, first from Saddam Hussein and now from Iran.

In fact, the entire neoconservative argument for "regional transformation" rests on the notion that the prevailing political order in the Middle East - a political order sustained by American patronage and protection - has nurtured the conditions for bin Ladenism and must therefore be overturned.

Paul Wolfowitz - hardly a blame-America-firster - defended the removal of Saddam Hussein explicitly on the grounds that it would assuage one of bin Laden's grievances. In an interview with Vanity Fair the former Assistant Defense Secretary said that U.S. forces stationed in Saudi Arabia had "been a source of enormous difficulty for a friendly government. It's been a huge recruiting device for al Qaeda. In fact if you look at bin Laden, one of his principle grievances was the presence of so-called crusader forces on the holy land, Mecca and Medina."

Wolfowitz was correct, of course. In a 1998 fatwa signaling his jihad against America and the West and in interviews, bin Laden cited the stationing of troops in Saudi Arabia (necessary for containing Saddam) and the supposed depredations visited upon Iraq by the U.S. through sanctions and the no-fly-zones among his principle grievances. More significantly, America's support for "infidel" regimes led bin Laden to conclude that only by striking the "far enemy" (the U.S.) could he sufficiently weaken American support for the "near enemy" regimes of Saudi Arabia and Egypt, making them easier targets. This initially put him at odds with his number two, Ayman al Zawahiri, who wanted to focus the jihadist firepower on Middle Eastern governments.

On a more transactional level, American support for anti-Soviet forces in Afghanistan is widely understood as have playing an instrumental role in the formation of al Qaeda. Pakistan's intelligence service routed American arms and Saudi money to radical forces in Afghanistan to beat back the Soviet invasion. The beneficiaries of this covert subsidy included Osama bin Laden and many of the "Arab Afghans" volunteers who would later form the nucleus of al Qaeda.

Lastly, opinion polls in the Middle East routinely portray a region bristling against American policies and influence (though not, it should be noted, with unrestrained hostility for Americans as a people). Throw in radical Islamic teachings, which reinforce the need to cleanse "holy soil" of any infidel influence, and you have the toxic stew from which al Qaeda sips.

Different analysts weight these two factors - radical theology and nationalistic umbrage - differently. I've argued earlier that this interpretative divide is largely fictitious, that radical Islam is both a reaction to American policies and an expression of Islamic fundamentalism. But it is simply counter-factual to suggest that America's Middle East policy has played no role whatsoever in the terrorist threat we're now confronting.

So why was Paul savaged?

I believe it's because many conservatives, especially since 9/11, have become increasingly unwilling to internalize the simple maxim that government actions have consequences - many of them unintended, some of them negative. Conservatives are rightly skeptical of grand government initiatives aimed at curing various domestic ills. Yet some have become convinced that the same bureaucrats who cannot balance the budget will nonetheless be able to deftly manage the political outcomes of nations half a world away. The tendency is so acute that it led the libertarian blogger Jim Henley to wryly observe that for some "Hayek stops at the water's edge."

Furthermore, understanding why bin Laden struck at America is not the same as excusing the murderers of 9/11 anymore than observing that Hitler desired Lebensraum excuses his invasion of Poland. Knowing your enemy is the all-important first step to defeating him.

Indeed, Paul has done the debate a fundamental service by raising the complex issues of cost and benefit when it comes to America's Middle East policy. You can argue, as former National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski did, that a few "stirred up Muslims" was worth the price of driving a defeated Soviet Union out of Afghanistan. You can also argue, as the Bush administration has done, that 9/11 was not a serious enough event to merit a substantial rethinking of our relationship with Saudi Arabia. You can even claim that more, not less, intervention in the Middle East is what is required to bring about needed change.

What you cannot seriously argue is that the world is a "consequence free" zone in which U.S. actions can never catalyze harmful reactions.

American policy cannot be held hostage to the umbrage of religious fanatics, but we should pursue our policies with the clear-eyed understanding that government is a blunt instrument and that bureaucrats in Washington are not all-knowing sages capable of fine-tuning events and people in far away countries to precisely accord with our interests.

Indeed, beneath his awkward syntax, Ron Paul was making a serious point: that less intervention in the Middle East would ultimately improve American security. If Mayor Giuliani disagrees, he should at least explain why.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: godblessronpaul; liberaltarians; loser; nut; nutjob; paulbearers; ronpaul
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Quite a good piece on this subject. IMO
1 posted on 05/18/2007 8:13:14 AM PDT by traviskicks
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To: traviskicks

And for those who argue Ron Paul is not ‘Conservative’, I suggest reading the following:
Scandals are a Symptom, Not a Cause
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1554737/posts


2 posted on 05/18/2007 8:15:01 AM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/Ron_Paul_2008.htm)
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To: traviskicks; Abram; akatel; albertp; AlexandriaDuke; Alexander Rubin; Allosaurs_r_us; amchugh; ...
Libertarian ping! To be added or removed from my ping list freepmail me or post a message here.
3 posted on 05/18/2007 8:15:56 AM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/Ron_Paul_2008.htm)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; The_Eaglet

GRPL ping


4 posted on 05/18/2007 8:17:45 AM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/Ron_Paul_2008.htm)
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To: traviskicks

They come to attack us because we are free to choose to stand in their way of their murderous ideologys goals.


5 posted on 05/18/2007 8:23:12 AM PDT by Names Ash Housewares
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To: traviskicks

Excellent find. Thanks.


6 posted on 05/18/2007 8:25:01 AM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
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To: traviskicks

There’s more to being Conservative than advocating limited government. Ron Paul’s take on borders, foreign affairs, personal freedom, and the use of power place him in the Libertarian camp


7 posted on 05/18/2007 8:32:25 AM PDT by gcruse
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To: traviskicks
It's about time someone injected some cool reason into this fracas and came to Paul's defense. He said it clumsily and it was inevitable that the other candidates' ambition, sound bite journalism, and simpleton conservatives would make him out to be a leftist America-hater, but what he said is fundamentally true. Islamic hatred towards the US did not emerge out of a vacuum. Somewhere along the line some episode or general policy of interventionism contributed to it. Given that many of the followers of a large religion would more or less like to see us all killed, perhaps our inclination to constantly control and intervene in world affairs is not always in our best interest.

This is not to say we should cower idly for fear of offending people, or surrender our mantle of world superpower. But perhaps we should be more cognizant of the fact that actions have unintended consequences, and that defending our vital interests in the world is a bit like using one finger to plug a dam with many holes.

8 posted on 05/18/2007 8:34:09 AM PDT by ForOurFuture
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To: traviskicks
Indeed, beneath his awkward syntax, Ron Paul was making a serious point: that less intervention in the Middle East would ultimately improve American security.

Which means giving up any and all support of Israel. There were Islamic terrorists attacking us long before we were in Iraq. No thanks, we don't give into the terrorists. Besides, they do hate us for simply not being Muslims. Once they finished the Jews, we would be next anyways.

9 posted on 05/18/2007 8:35:11 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: traviskicks

Problem is he is not right on the WOT, far from it. You all Paulettes spamming FR with threads is not going to help Pau lone bit but hurt him even more.


10 posted on 05/18/2007 8:38:56 AM PDT by jrooney (The democrats are the friend of our enemy and the enemy of our friends. Attack them, not GW!)
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To: ForOurFuture

Then why are muzzies attacking Thais, Balinese Indonesians (Hindu), Sudanese, Nigerians, etc, etc, etc???? US and Israel has nothing to do with them. It is estimated that muzzies are involved in 45 conflicts with non muzzies. Non of them involve US or Israel. So what is the story????


11 posted on 05/18/2007 8:41:08 AM PDT by Fee ( R)
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To: Always Right
Besides, they do hate us for simply not being Muslims.

There are non-Muslims in Peru, Norway, South Africa, Mongolia, and Australia. Why don't Muslims fly planes into buildings and pursue jihad against these nations?

12 posted on 05/18/2007 8:42:34 AM PDT by ForOurFuture
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To: traviskicks
But what Ron Paul said is, in fact, utterly uncontroversial and utterly true. Nowhere did Paul suggest ala Ward Churchill that the U.S. deserved to be attacked, he merely sought to explain the motives of those who attacked us. His explanation was certainly incomplete and a bit ham-handed, but it was not inaccurate or blatantly false.

Male Bovine Fecal Effluvia. The Jihadists would have attacked us because of our culture and our freedom regardless if we were in Saudi or not. They hate us because of who we are.

Ron Paul said that it was because of American interventionism that we were attacked. I'm not buying it.

What about the first WTC attack? What about the Marines that were killed in the early 1980s in Beirut? Were we in Saudi back then?

What about the hostages the Iranians took in 1979? It's true you can argue this was in reaction to the Shah and his policies and that we were supporting him, but I don't think by any stretch this is the complete answer to the question.

13 posted on 05/18/2007 8:42:47 AM PDT by sauropod ("An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools." Ernest Hemingway)
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To: ForOurFuture
Islamic hatred towards the US did not emerge out of a vacuum.

It comes from the same place as their hatred for all other infidels. The Quran.

Human history since 622 has been distorted and disfigured by Islam's hatred for non-Islamics: Jews, Armenians, Hindus, apostate muslims, the Danish, etc. It's simply incorrect to state that Islamic hate must have been due to something America did.

Muslims will kill their own daughters due to a perceived slight to their Ird - why should we expect there to be a rational cause for their hatred for the US?

14 posted on 05/18/2007 8:46:15 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Always Right

You’ve hit the nail on the head and those that don’t believe that are in for a rude awakening.


15 posted on 05/18/2007 8:46:37 AM PDT by MadAnthony1776 ("liberalism" = "do as I say, not as I do")
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To: Fee

I believe the reason is because we are infidels and that is the only reason, maybe I am wrong, however history shows otherwise.


16 posted on 05/18/2007 8:47:28 AM PDT by Xenophon450 ("If a man obeys the gods, they are quick to hear his prayers." - Homer)
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To: traviskicks

Do you understand that Ron Paul is a defeatist who wants to surrender us in the war on terror? How can you support such a person?!


17 posted on 05/18/2007 8:47:34 AM PDT by jveritas (Support The Commander in Chief in Times of War)
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To: ForOurFuture
There are non-Muslims in Peru, Norway, South Africa, Mongolia, and Australia. Why don't Muslims fly planes into buildings and pursue jihad against these nations?

This will make it simple for you. Islam's pecking order of hatred:

1. Jews
2. Anyone who supports Jews
3. non-Muslims

Hope that clears it up for you.

18 posted on 05/18/2007 8:50:25 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: gcruse
There’s more to being Conservative than advocating limited government. Ron Paul’s take on borders, foreign affairs, personal freedom, and the use of power place him in the Libertarian camp

So, you think that it's conservative to be against personal freedom?!

"If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is." --Ronald Reagan

19 posted on 05/18/2007 8:50:54 AM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: ForOurFuture
Because those countries are not the bulwark of the West.

This is a silly argument to have.

Ron Paul is right and wrong at the same time. He is right because Bin Ladin's fatwas do list our presence in the Middle East as the causes for his jihad. But to say that is the reason for 9/11 misses the bigger picture.

With the Soviet Union (which Bin Ladin considered the stronger of the super powers) defeated by his mujahadeen, the time is right to strike the weaker. (That would be us) Why? Because, as Bin Ladin sees it, we have the attention span of a gnat, desire our sensual pleasures over our own safety, and will not fight to preserve our civilization. Our withdrawal from Somalia convinced him of that.

Now, if you want to insist that Paul is right, I won't argue with you. But, if that is Paul's understanding of Bin Ladin and 9/11, I don't want him anywhere near the presidency because I worry about his critical thinking skills. He can't see the forest for the trees.

20 posted on 05/18/2007 8:51:16 AM PDT by carton253 (I've cried tears and stayed the same.)
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To: agere_contra; sauropod

There are free non-Muslims in Peru, Norway, South Africa, Mongolia, and Australia. Why don’t Muslims fly planes into buildings and pursue jihad against these nations?


21 posted on 05/18/2007 8:51:34 AM PDT by ForOurFuture
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To: traviskicks

Paul definately broke a taboo in America. I can’t remember the last time a politician suggested all foreigners might not be completely happy with US foreign policy over the past 50 years...It took courage, and it’s a shame he is being smeared for pointing out the obvious.


22 posted on 05/18/2007 8:51:59 AM PDT by Silverbug
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To: sauropod
What about the Marines that were killed in the early 1980s in Beirut? Were we in Saudi back then?

Actually we, and I do mean we, were in Lebanon. That's why they attacked us in Lebanon you frigging twit.

L

23 posted on 05/18/2007 8:52:03 AM PDT by Lurker (Comparing 'moderate' islam to 'extremist' islam is like comparing small pox to plague.)
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To: ForOurFuture
There are non-Muslims in Peru, Norway, South Africa, Mongolia, and Australia. Why don't Muslims fly planes into buildings and pursue jihad against these nations?

There were plenty of women in London who Jack the Ripper didn't knife. So obviously the girls he did stab must have done something to deserve it. It's all so clear now.

24 posted on 05/18/2007 8:52:11 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: jrooney

Ron Paul got ZERO percent in the latest Gallup poll.

The better news is someone will challenge his seat in 2008.


25 posted on 05/18/2007 8:52:49 AM PDT by finnman69 (cum puella incedit minore medio corpore sub quo manifestus globus, inflammare animos)
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To: Always Right
Which means giving up any and all support of Israel.

We have troops in Israel? Who knew?

L

26 posted on 05/18/2007 8:52:53 AM PDT by Lurker (Comparing 'moderate' islam to 'extremist' islam is like comparing small pox to plague.)
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To: traviskicks
In a now famous November 6, 2003 address, President Bush explicitly linked U.S. policy with the rise of Islamic terrorism: "Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe

This is where Bush's naivete got him into trouble. The idea that every nation in the world needs democracy is fatally flawed. Democracy is fundamentally incompatible with Islam.

27 posted on 05/18/2007 8:53:40 AM PDT by montag813
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To: Gondring

” So, you think that it’s conservative to be against personal freedom?!’

You can’t be serious. Social conservatism is founded on telling other people how to live.


28 posted on 05/18/2007 8:54:33 AM PDT by gcruse
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To: ForOurFuture
The fanaticism illustrated by 9/11 didn’t begin when Bush #1 attacked Saddam’s forces in Kuwait or our military was stationed in Saudi Arabia. There's a litany of attacks perpetrated on the U.S. going back to the 80's that had no basis for retaliation. Of course, in the fanatics minds, we sure did something. How about exist, like the Israeli's?’s.

Paul is a blame America candidate and he’ll never win election. He’ll only get praise from the democRATS for being a RINO.

29 posted on 05/18/2007 8:54:35 AM PDT by tonysamm
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To: finnman69

Great news and I agree. Thanks.


30 posted on 05/18/2007 8:55:09 AM PDT by jrooney (The democrats are the friend of our enemy and the enemy of our friends. Attack them, not GW!)
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To: gcruse

Neocons = Woodrow Wilson Democrats.


31 posted on 05/18/2007 8:57:07 AM PDT by jd777
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To: traviskicks

Conservativism and Libertarianism are diametrically opposed. This article doesn’t belong on this website. Neither do you.


32 posted on 05/18/2007 8:57:45 AM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: traviskicks
It would be OK if Ron Paul were right, but he's not. UBL's stated reasons for declaring war on the U.S. are good PR in the Arab world, nothing more. He's selling an ugly Salafist product, wrapped in sexy packaging of Resistance to Foreign Aggression!

Bin Laden was not then, is not now, nor will he in the future, open to being placated by a U.S. withdrawl from the Middle East, troops, aid, and politically speaking. No apology will appease him. No action or inaction will prove our contrition to him.

Ron Paul isn't wrong, as far as remembering how the transcript of Bin Laden's fatwa reads. Paul is wrong because he's taking UBL at face value.

He's wrong because he believes him.

33 posted on 05/18/2007 8:57:59 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (If every Republican is a RINO, then no Republican is a RINO.)
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To: Lurker

Excellent answer, L. It’s hard to attack us in countries we aren’t in.


34 posted on 05/18/2007 8:58:23 AM PDT by Equality 7-2521
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To: agere_contra
There were plenty of women in London who Jack the Ripper didn't knife. So obviously the girls he did stab must have done something to deserve it. It's all so clear now.

Your wit is overwhelming. Please cover it with a sheet so others are not blinded.

Jack the Ripper killed whores. Other women were left alone.

Muslims war against nations that incessantly stick their nose into Middle Eastern affairs. Other nations are left alone.

35 posted on 05/18/2007 9:00:18 AM PDT by ForOurFuture
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To: sauropod
You're conflating terrorist groups.

AQ is a sunni organization that was founded during the insurgency against the russians in Afghanistan. Their primary goals are the conquest of Saudi Arabia and the middle east. AQ's goals, members and motivations differ from all of the other terror groups and attacks you mention.

The WTC itself was considered an insult to Islam in general. A little known fact about the WTC is that the Japanese architect who designed it used many islamic elements in its construction. You can read more about what I'm talking about here:

http://www.slate.com/?id=2060207

The Beirut attacks and possibly the first WTC attack were based on American support for Israel and the American occupation of Lebanon along with the Israelis. The Iranian came from the US's support for the shah(note that the shi'ites would love nothing more than to slaughter sunni AQ and vice versa).

So Ron Paul has a point. American intervention in the middle east *does* inflame terrorism in the middle east.

However please don't take this argument as my position against US intervention. The US *should* intervene in the middle east, but US intervention has to be tempered with realism(US policy makers should not be surprised when groups rebel against American intervention) and stoicism(you are going to take causalities, this should be expected, this whole "we will be welcomed as liberators" BS needs to be replaced with a fundamental understanding that we have have a job to do, and should do it right).
36 posted on 05/18/2007 9:03:11 AM PDT by ketsu
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To: presidio9

lol, see post 19, you appear to have some misconceptions about libertarianism...


37 posted on 05/18/2007 9:03:33 AM PDT by traviskicks (http://www.neoperspectives.com/Ron_Paul_2008.htm)
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To: gcruse

Ron Paul is very different fromt he LP onthe issue of borders/immigration. In fact, he is the only candidate besides Tancredo to stand firmaly against amnesty.


38 posted on 05/18/2007 9:04:58 AM PDT by oblomov
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To: ForOurFuture
There are free non-Muslims in Peru, Norway, South Africa, Mongolia, and Australia. Why don’t Muslims fly planes into buildings and pursue jihad against these nations?

Both Norway and Australia have had problems with rapes specifically directed at non-Muslim women from Muslim immigrants. It's all jihad, it's the same violent hatred directed against non-muslims that knocked down the WTC.

This malevolent and irrational enmity is percolated through innumerable madrassas and mosques and promulgated by hate-filled Imams: false prophets but true students of the Quran.

I agree that America is more in the firing line than Peru: but then so is France, which has bent over backwards to accomodate Islam since Napoleon's day. That didn't stop the terrorists from bombing one of their Oil tankers. The money quote from the terrorists on that occasion was, IIRC "We would have preferred to attack an American ship, but no problem, they are all infidels"

39 posted on 05/18/2007 9:07:10 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Lurker
Which means giving up any and all support of Israel.

We have troops in Israel? Who knew?

Just FYI, but "support", insofar as military aid, runs in the billions of dollars a year. Isreal has huge amounts of American weapons, including Apache attack helicopters and F16s with precision munitions.

That may possibly qualify as "support".

40 posted on 05/18/2007 9:08:34 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (If every Republican is a RINO, then no Republican is a RINO.)
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To: ForOurFuture

In Australia, muzzie men scream at bikini Australian woman if they are on the beaches near their families, and will not hesitate to beat up any Australian men coming to the woman’s defense. Several times, the Australian men (including a life guard) were knifed by the Muzzies. That is the level of violence the muzzies are willing to do and they are less than 5 percent of the population, imagine what Australia will face if muzzies become 10 percent of the population?? Given enough time, muzzies will smash planes into India over Kashmir, China over Sanjing, and Russia over Chenchenia. It is in their nature to commit violence because unlike most religions, muzzies did not go thru a period of enlightment in their history. They went from the Middle Ages to Modern Age.


41 posted on 05/18/2007 9:10:20 AM PDT by Fee ( R)
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To: ForOurFuture
Muslims war against nations that incessantly stick their nose into Middle Eastern affairs. Other nations are left alone.

Spoken like a good little Dhimmi.

How's Darfur doing these days, btw? 85 and sunny, with a 40% chance of genocide later in the evening?

42 posted on 05/18/2007 9:10:49 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (If every Republican is a RINO, then no Republican is a RINO.)
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To: ForOurFuture
There are non-Muslims in Peru, Norway, South Africa, Mongolia, and Australia. Why don't Muslims fly planes into buildings and pursue jihad against these nations?

Not really the best examples either. Australia has been the target of several attacks. In 2005, there were 17 Islamic terrorists arrested who planning major attacks in Sydney and Melborne. Then their embassy in Jakarta was attacked. The attacks in Bali in both 2002 and 2005 killed numerous Astralians.

43 posted on 05/18/2007 9:11:43 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: Steel Wolf
It would be OK if Ron Paul were right, but he's not. UBL's stated reasons for declaring war on the U.S. are good PR in the Arab world, nothing more. He's selling an ugly Salafist product, wrapped in sexy packaging of Resistance to Foreign Aggression!
You're mistaking cause and effect.

Osama would be a grease smear under a Russian tank tread if it weren't for American support. Likewise Hamas wouldn't exist if not for Israel backing Hamas against the PLO(during the first Intifada).

So Ron Paul is right, to an extent. If it weren't for US intervention, AQ very likely wouldn't be a problem. However, if the US didn't support the Taliban and proto-AQ Russia would have a strong position in the middle east today and may not have collapsed. It's a matter of picking your poison.

What the US does need to do though is take a long view. Does the way we deal with threats today create more threats tomorrow? US policy making needs to be less ideological and more realistic. That includes bumping off threats before they can be a problem(if the US had quietly wiped out the Taliban leaders in the 80's ...) and less whinging for "democracy"(you can see how well democracy worked for the occupied territories).
44 posted on 05/18/2007 9:12:39 AM PDT by ketsu
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To: ketsu

Thanks for the information! Looks like I have more larnin’ to do!

Wasn’t the first WTC attack an Al Qaeda operation?


45 posted on 05/18/2007 9:12:53 AM PDT by sauropod ("An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools." Ernest Hemingway)
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To: traviskicks
"...They don't come here to attack us because we're rich and we're free. They come and they attack us because we're over there..."

I am sorry folks. Nothing out of context there. This was not clumsy. He said what he said, and it is just, plain wrong.

Make all the arguments about his possession or lack of conservative credentials, but this is not the battleground you should choose to fight on.

46 posted on 05/18/2007 9:13:05 AM PDT by rlmorel (Liberals: If the Truth would help them, they would use it.)
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To: ForOurFuture
Muslims war against nations that incessantly stick their nose into Middle Eastern affairs. Other nations are left alone.

The same could be said of Nazis

47 posted on 05/18/2007 9:13:41 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: traviskicks

Another Rue Paul thread...we’re getting flooded with the 1%centers..


48 posted on 05/18/2007 9:13:49 AM PDT by eleni121 (+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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To: traviskicks
less intervention in the Middle East would ultimately improve American security

False. These people are out to conquer the world. They can use whatever excuse they want, but ultimately, their intent is to take over every country, either via warfare or internal methods, and make the world one giant Islamic Caliphate.

They are willing to be slow, patient, and methodical -- attitudes the modern West, and especially the non-interventionist subset of the population, sorely lack.

49 posted on 05/18/2007 9:14:50 AM PDT by kevkrom ("Government is too important to leave up to the government" - Fred Dalton Thompsn)
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To: ForOurFuture
Jack the Ripper killed whores. Other women were left alone.

You may not like trial-by-analogy, but I think it has a certain utility on this occasion. What had those evil prostitutes done to hurt Jack the Ripper?

False Answer: they had occupied the part of Whitechapel which Jack's father had been thrown out of by the feelthy Joos.

True Answer: by simply existing, they were an affront to his world-view, and so they had to die.

50 posted on 05/18/2007 9:15:13 AM PDT by agere_contra
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