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The FReeper Foxhole's TreadHead Tuesday - M551 Sheridan Light Tank - Jul. 20th, 2004
afvdb.50megs.com ^

Posted on 07/20/2004 12:02:28 AM PDT by SAMWolf



Lord,

Keep our Troops forever in Your care

Give them victory over the enemy...

Grant them a safe and swift return...

Bless those who mourn the lost.
.

FReepers from the Foxhole join in prayer
for all those serving their country at this time.


...................................................................................... ...........................................

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152mm Gun-launcher
Armored Reconnaissance
Airborne Assault Vehicle
M551 Sheridan




As can be surmised from the designation, the M551 Sheridan was intended to fill a multitude of roles. It was a light airdroppable tank, a reconnaissance vehicle, and was able to take on enemy armor thanks to its 152mm combination gun/missile launcher. The driver's hatch was unusual in that it rotated around the driver on a vertical axis, while the commander's cupola hatch and loader's hatch were more conventional. M551's hull was ringed by a lightweight structure filled with closed cell polystyrene foam for buoyancy, and a flotation screen could be raised to allow the vehicle to float across water obstacles. There were four smoke grenade launchers on either side of the turret which were supported by a brace on early vehicles. Early M551s had a turret ventilator dome on the left rear side wall; this was moved to the turret left front on later Sheridans.


The M551 Sheridan, from just off the assembly line at the Cleveland Tank Plant


The original M81 152mm gun-launcher on the M551 was equipped with a bore evacuator and an open breech carbon dioxide scavenging system, which was composed of two jets that blew CO2 into the open breech after firing to get rid of any remnants of the combustible case ammunition. However, this system also blew any burning pieces of left over combustible cases around the turret, which was unpleasant for the crew and deadly with the rest of the ammunition around. A closed breech scavenging system (CBSS) was developed by Allison to remedy this problem. CBSS blew any remaining pieces of the ammunition out of the weapon while the breech was still closed. CBSS was first installed on M551 number 700, and retrofit kits were developed for the previous vehicles. In vehicles with CBSS, ammunition stowage was reduced to a total of 29 rounds and missiles since one of the air cylinders replaced an ammunition rack.



The 152mm gun-launchers differ in the following ways: M81 was fitted with a bore evacuator and the open breech scavenging system; M81 Modified was an M81 retrofitted with the CBSS; M81E1 had a shallower missile keyway to reduce firing stresses on the barrel, and the barrel was thickened near the muzzle. When CBSS was introduced, the bore evacuator was omitted from new-production gun-launchers.

The MGM-51 Shillelagh missile was a SACLOS infrared-guided missile fitted with a shaped-charge warhead. MGM-51B extended the maximum range to 3km from the MGM-51A's 2km, and the MGM-51C was fitted with a shorter key compatible with the M81E1 gun-launcher. Sheridans 140 through 223 and 740 through 885 were produced without the missile guidance hardware.



In early 1972, laser rangefinders AN/VVG-1 were fitted to the commander's cupola, and the transceiver replaced the forward vision block. The rest of the laser rangefinder was mounted behind the commander, and a cable cover ran around the right side of the cupola from the transceiver to the rear of the TC's position. Sheridans fitted with the laser rangefinder were designated M551A1. M551A1s also replaced the gunner's M127 sighting telescope with the M127A1, which provided protection against laser light, and the cupola could be aligned with the main gun-launcher automatically.

In early 1989, the tank thermal sight from the 105mm gun tank M60A3(TTS) was also fitted to the M551A1. These vehicles were known as M551A1(TTS).



This view shows the M551's unusual driver's hatch in the open position. The hatch rotated around the driver, removing the need for an adjustable-height seat for open-hatch operation, and also eliminating the worry of turret rotation over the driver's exposed head. The black container on the hatch to the mannequin's right is the periscope washer fluid reservoir. The smoke grenade launchers on this vehicle are mounted in a line, however the original design featured a metal bar mount that ran under the grenade launcher assemblies.


(Picture taken 1 Dec 1990 by Spc. Henry; available from the Defense Visual Information Center.)


The gun-launcher on this M551A1(TTS) lacks a bore evacuator, so this vehicle is equipped with the closed-breech scavenging system. The guidance unit for the Shillelagh missiles is mounted above the base of the gun-launcher. The commander's weapon station has been fitted with armor protection, and additional machine gun ammunition could be stowed around the circumferance of the turret. The laser rangefinder transceiver is visible just above the spare ammunition box, and the cable cover runs around the right side of the cupola. The smoke grenade launchers are mounted over the brackets for the older style grenade launchers, which had four tubes on each side of the turret mounted linearly instead of clustered. One-hundred fifty-two millimeter ammunition is stored with protective bags around the combustible cartridge case; the bag is removed before firing.


The surf board is in the fording position and the swim screens, stored in chambers running along the upper edges of the hull, are fitted together. It wasn't pretty but it met the Army requirements.


The M551 Sheridan tank was designed in the early 1960's, as a need arose for U.S. forces needing a light tank. Constructed of aluminum armor, it is extremely fast, using a 300 hp Detroit Diesel engine and cross drive transmission. It mounts a steel turret and an aluminum hull. It was air transportable and fully amphibious with the screen around the sides raised. The main gun fired a 152mm standard projectile or a missile. It packed a lot of punch for a small tank. A similar gun was also used on the M728 Combat Engineer Vehicle. It is equipped with nuclear, biological, and chemical protection for the crew of four men. This enables it to fight in almost any climate or situation. The vehicle has seen combat use in Vietnam, Panama and Desert Storm, and it is used today for training in the California desert by the Armored Force Opposing Forces training center. Weight is 34,900 lbs. Top speed is 43 mph. It was built by the Allison Division of General Motors.



The M551 Sheridan was developed to provide the US Army with a light armored reconnaissance vehicle with heavy firepower. The main armament consists of an 152mm M81 gun/missile launcher capable of firing conventional ammunition and the MGM-51 Shillelagh antitank missile (20 conventional rounds and 8 missiles). Due to problems with the gun-tube-launched antitank missile, the Sheridan was not fielded widely throughout the Army. The gun would foul with caseless ammuniton, gun firing would interfere with missle electronics, and the entire vehicle recoiled with unusual vigor when the gun was fired, since the 152mm gun was too big for the light-weight chassis. The Shillelagh missles were evidently never used in anger. In addition to the main gun/missile launcher, the M551 is armed with a 7.62mm M240 machine gun and a 12.7mm M2 HB antiaircraft machine gun. A Detroit Diesel 6V-53T 300hp turbo-charged V-6 diesel engine and an Allison TG-250-2A poweshift transmission provide the Sheridan's power. Protection for the four-man crew is provided by an aluminum hull and steel turret. Although light enough to be airdrop-capable, the alumninum armour was thin enough to be pierced by heavy machine-gun rounds, and the vehicle was particularly vulnerable to mines.



Initially produced in 1966, the M551 was fielded in 1968. 1,562 M551s were built between 1966 and 1970. The Sheridan saw limited action in Vietnam, where many deficiencies were revealed. The missle system was useless against an enemy that employed tanks, though the Sheridan saw a lot of use towards the end of the war because of its mobility. Sheridan-equiped units participated in Operation Just Cause in Panama (1989), and was deployed to Saudi Arabia during Operation Desert Shield. As projectile technology advanced, the Sheridan's potential declined and it was phased out of the US inventory beginning in 1978. The M551 was last used by the 82nd Airborne Division. Some 330 "visually-modified" Sheridans represent threat tanks and armored vehicles at the National Training Center in Fort Irwin, California.



The engine for the M551 was a General Motors 6V53T, V-6 cylinder, supercharged, 2-stroke diesel engine. It produced around 300hp at 2800rpm and could push the AFV at over 43mph on level roads. The 158gal of diesel could fuel the Sheridan for 350 miles between fill ups. The white transmission is seen to the right in this photo and is at the rear of the engine. This left side view shows the radiator and cooling fan to the left in the picture, the cylinder head cover along the top and exhaust manifold covered with foil insulation along the side. The canister mounted upright on this side, near the top/rear of the engine, is the coolant surge tank and the other cylinder seen horizontal behind it is the supercharger. Down below is the cylindrical oil filter and the engine breather drain connection is at the very bottom of the block.


National Training Center M551 Sheridans


Initially, the power plant had problems with over-heating and its huge plume of black diesel smoke ("rooster tail") was a burden for the vehicle's primary role of recon. A later Product Improvement Program (PIP) decreased the smoke signature by adding a throttle delay feature and exhaust deflector. The original aluminum alloy engine block that was prone to heat warping was also replaced with a cast iron block that eliminated that problem.



TOPICS: VetsCoR
KEYWORDS: armor; freeperfoxhole; m551; mgm51shillelagh; sheridantank; tanks; treadhead; veterans; vietnam
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Ford M13/MGM-51 Shillelagh


The MGM-51 Shillelagh was the first gun-launched guided missile deployed by the U.S. Army ground forces.


Shillelagh missiles


In the 1950s, the U.S. Army looked for improved anti-armour weapon systems for the modern battlefield, and in 1958, the Combat Vehicle Weapon System program was approved. This program called for the development of new fighting vehicles, as well as guided missile type anti-tank weapons for short and medium ranges. For the short-range missile, Sperry and Ford Aeronutronics submitted design proposals, and in June 1959, Ford received a development contract for their system. The Ford missile was designated as Guided Missile, Armour Defeating, XM13, and named Shillelagh. The first launch of a Shillelagh prototype occurred in November 1960, and the test shots of guided rounds began in September 1961. In June 1963, the XM13 Shillelagh was redesignated as XMGM-51A, and in 1964 limited production of the XMGM-51A, together with the XMTM-51A training rounds, began. In May 1966, the Shillelagh was designated as standard equipment, and the tactical and training rounds were redesignated as MGM-51A and MTM-51A, respectively. In January 1967, the MGM-51A was first fielded by operational U.S. Army units.


This is an artist's concept of the Shillelagh weapon system developed for the US Army.


The primary deployment vehicle for the Shillelagh missile was the M551 Sheridan AFV (Armoured Fighting Vehicle), which could also fire conventional unguided M409 HEAT (High-Explosive Anti-Tank) rounds from its M81 gun. A typical loadout consisted of 8 Shillelagh missiles and 20 M409 rounds. In a Shillelagh shot, the gunner aimed the cross-hairs in his telescopic sight at the target, and fired the missile. After launch through the cannon, the missile's solid-fueled sustainer rocket ignited, and propelled the Shillelagh to flying speed (source [1] claims a speed of about 4200 km/h (2600 mph), but this seems to be way too high). For the time of flight of the round, the gunner had to keep the cross-hairs pointed at the target. A missile tracker in the gunner's sight detected any deviation of the flight path from the line-of-sight to the target, and transmitted corrective commands to the missile via an infrared command link. The MGM-51A was stabilized by flip-out fins, and controlled by hot gas jet reaction controls. The missile's 6.8 kg (15 lb) shaped charge warhead detonated on impact. Although strictly a short range (2000 m (6600 ft) max) line-of-sight weapon, the MGM-51A Shillelagh was an accurate missile even against moving targets. There were also some drawbacks, one of which was the relatively high minimum range of about 730 m (2400 ft). From launch until this distance, the MGM-51A flew below the line-of-sight of the tracking system's infrared beam and could therefore not be guided. Because the minimum range was slightly above the maximum effective range of the M551 Sheridan's conventional unguided munition, this created a dangerous "dead range" for the AFV. A Shillelagh missile was also rather expensive compared to conventional anti-armour rounds.



In 1963, the U.S. Army awarded Ford a contract to study the possibility of extending the Shillelagh's range by about 50 percent. In 1964, Ford proposed a slightly longer and heavier, but otherwise essentially unchanged missile. Flight tests of XMGM-51B evaluation rounds began in May 1965, and in October 1966, the extended range Shillelagh was approved for production as MGM-51B. The MTM-51B was the corresponding training round.


MGM-51 (exact model unknown)


To prevent missile roll during gun launch, the Shillelagh used a longitudinal key, which fitted into a keyway inside the gun barrel. The key of the MGM-51A/B was 3.3 mm (.130 in) deep and 25.4 cm (10 in) long. During tests in the 1964 time frame, it was discovered that structural cracks in the barrel occurred after a few hundred Shillelagh shots, and the origin of these cracks could be traced to the missile keyway. It was determined that a less deep key would significantly extend the service life of the barrel. During tests in 1966 with missiles of shallower key, the optimum key depth was found to be 1.9 mm (.075 in). After further test, the shallow-key missile was approved for production and service use in January 1968, and designated MGM-51C. As for the MGM-51A/B variants, there was also a training round of the MGM-51C, designated MTM-51C. Between August 1968 and February 1969, all deep-key MGM-51Bs were converted to MGM-51C configuration. Shallow-key missiles could also be fired from deep-key barrels, but not vice versa, of course. The shallow-key gun launcher was known as M81E1.


The M60A2 - armed with the revolutionary 152mm Shillelagh gun-launcher system, the A2 was also equipped with one of the first laser rangefinders ever fielded. The gun-launcher could fire conventional ammunition with a fully combustible charge, or the Shillelagh laser guided missile.


Apart from the M551 Sheridan, the only other delivery system for the Shillelagh was the M60A2 tank, developed from the M60A1 model via the interim M60A1E1 and M60A1E2. The M60A2 replaced the M60A1's turret with a new 152 mm gun turret compatible with Shillelagh, and the usual load was 13 missiles and 33 unguided rounds. After initial tests in 1966/67, the M60A2 was first fielded in 1974, after delays caused by technical problems. However, the M60A2/Shillelagh system was plagued by severe reliability problems, and was already phased out in 1980.


MGM-51 being loaded into an M60A2


The Shillelagh was in production until 1971, and a total of about 88000 MGM/MTM-51 missiles of all variants were built, including 12500 by Martin Marietta. Phaseout of the M551/Shillelagh system began in 1978, and in 1980 only a single active Airborne Battalion retained the M551. In the U.S. Army National Guard, the M551 was finally retired in 1984. However, the one active Army M551 unit kept these systems until 1991, and actually deployed during Operation Desert Storm (although no Shillelagh shot was fired). It can be assumed, that the last M551 vehicles and MGM-51C Shillelagh missiles were removed from the inventory soon after. The main replacement for Shillelagh as a mobile anti-armour missile was the significantly more versatile BGM-71 TOW.
1 posted on 07/20/2004 12:02:29 AM PDT by SAMWolf
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To: snippy_about_it; PhilDragoo; Johnny Gage; Victoria Delsoul; The Mayor; Darksheare; Valin; ...
M-551 Sheridan in Vietnam


Developed in 1959 as a replacement for the M41 light tank and the airborne M56 Scorpion self propelled antitank gun, the Sheridan was intended as an airborne reconnaissance and assault vehicle.


Following a parachute drop, crewmen ready their vehicle for action. Note the cardboard dunning immediately under the main gun barrel, part of the elaborate system to cushion the shock of landing.


Standard Vehicle Data

Type: Light Tank
Crew: 4 (Commander, Driver, Gunner and Loader)
Range: 600 km
Max Speed: 70 km/h (5.8 km/h in water)

Armour:

Assembly: Welding
Hull: Rolled 7039 aluminum alloy
Turret: Rolled and cast homogeneous steel

Fording: Amphibious
Obstacle: Capable of traversing obstacles up to 0.8 meters high
Crossing: Capable of crossing gaps of up to 2.5 meters

Armament:

1 x 152mm Gun/Missile Launcher
1 x 7.62mm co-axial MG
1 x .50 cal on commander's cupola.
8 Smoke Dischargers



In 1968 plans were approved to equip two divisional cavalry squadrons, the 1st and 3rd Squadrons of the 4th Cavalry with the new tank Neither unit actually wanted the Sheridan because it was suspected of being too vulnerable to mines and RPG's.

In a last minute change of plan, the new M551's were sent to the 1st Squadron, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment and the 3rd Squadron, 4th Cavalry with 'B' Troop 3/4 Cavalry receiving their first Sheridan's in late January 1969.



It was subsequently decided to replace the M48A3 Patton's in cavalry platoons of divisional cavalry squadrons with the M551. Some cavalry platoons of regimental cavalry squadrons were actually using M113 ACAV's as substitutes for the M48A3's in their cavalry platoons and it was intended that the M551 should replace these also. By 1970 almost every cavalry unit in RVN was equipped with the Sheridan.



The M551 suffered from many defects (see below). One particular problem concerned the vehicle's all electric fire-control system which malfunctioned continuously in the rainy season, and despite pre-deployment tests which highlighted these problems - in particular the combustible 152-mm ammunition - and the general unsuitability of the vehicle for the hot and humid Vietnamese environment, the Army sent the M551 anyway. According to Jerry Headley the picture above of 'Hard Core 7',

"... the track belongs to B Troop, 2d Platoon. It was taken in the Ho Bo Woods in Feb '69. I was the Troop Commander at the time. The photo was taken by Army photographers. They also took films. The purpose was to send them to Congress. They were investigating complaints about the Sheridan, i.e., too noisy, gave off a plume of white smoke when moving, etc. Notice the "RPG Screen" in front of the driver. The crew made this themselves as additional protection from RPGs."



The Sheridan was armed with a 152-mm main gun (vehicles dispatched to Vietnam had the guidance system for their ATGW missiles removed) which fired a selection of combustible-case antitank rounds and also the 'beehive' round. Other armament consisted of a co-axial 7.62-mm MG and cupola mounted .50-cal M2 HB for use by the tank commander. When the M551 first appeared in RVN they did not have any armor protection for the tank commander's .50-cal MG. Many crews utilised the armored gun shields from M113's to provide some protection to the tank commander. Eventually, a production armor kit was developed, known as the 'bird cage', to provide all-around protection for the commander.



Whilst the Sheridan had a steel turret it only had a thin aluminum hull which was vulnerable to RPG's. In particular the M551 had a thin underbelly which, unlike the heavy steel belly armor of the M48A3, was very susceptible to damage from mines. As a result, many crews refused to ride inside the vehicle (just as they did with the M113). The Army attempted to remedy this by retro-fitting steel belly armor. In contrast to the M48A3 which could absorb a lot of hits and still continue to fight, in combat the Sheridan was prone to catastrophic explosions (due in part to the highly combustible 152-mm ammunition carried).



Jim Fitzpatrick (11th ACR, '64 - '67) wrote,

"as for the M551 Sheridan tank, they were death traps and most of the troopers I know who rode them hated them. They had explosive shell casings that sometimes exploded when the 551 hit a mine and when RPG and 51 cal. ammo had pierced the thin armor plate of this track. The tanks (M48A3) of the Cav troops were replaced by ACAVs when we went to Nam, only the tank companies of the 11th Cav kept the M48A3s. I personally am glad I never had to ride the 551, although I TC'd an ACAV through an ambush at Suoi Cat on Dec 2 1966."

DESIGN DEFECTS


When asked to highlight some of the problems experienced with the M551, Stanley Homiski, Commo Sergeant with B Troop, 3/4 Cav replied,

"... I can tell you one thing about the Sheridan is that at first we had a lot of radio problems with them. That was because when that 152 MM main gun fired it would lift the tank up off the ground about two feet the second road wheel back and the action of the tank coming back into firing position would severely damage the radio mount. It wasn't shock mounted properly. This was in addition to all the other problems we had with it."

"... electrical problems with the Sheridan happened more during the wet season... we found that due to temperature changes between the daytime (100+ degrees F) and nighttime temperatures (around 70 degrees F) that severe condensation problems occurred. There would be small droplets of water dripping in the turret usually around the area that the radio was installed. At one point we resorted to covering the radio with a poncho to keep out the moisture but this in turn caused problems with the radio starting to overheat due to lack of ventilation."

"... I don't know if you are aware that one of the major problems with it in Vietnam was one of engine failure, the vents would become plugged with jungle vegetation and the damn engine would fail, one of the other things was the main gun ammo - it didn't have a brass shell casing, the whole shell was consumable and you had to keep asbestos covers over the ammo up until you loaded it into the breech."

Additional Sources:

www.designation-systems.net
www.gruntonline.com
members.aol.com/Faessler99
eaglehorse.org
www.globalsecurity.org
afvinteriors.hobbyvista.com
www.redstone.army.mil
www.coldwar.org
usarmygermany.com

2 posted on 07/20/2004 12:03:21 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: All
Where are they now?


The M551 Sheridan was one of those rare AFVs that was clearly ahead of its time. Unfortunately, it was also a compromise design combining qualities for both light reconnaissance and airborne assault vehicles, and was built before the necessary technology of its components were perfected. The result was a vehicle that appeased no one. Although the Sheridan is no longer in service as a battle vehicle, the complicated story of its design and service is another interesting lesson in AFV planning and design.

The M551 Sheridan has now been completely retired from any official service duties with the only army in which it ever served. A few good examples of the vehicle can still be found for those wishing to view or research it further. These include the outdoor display of the National Training Center at Ft. Irwin; one in the Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor at Ft. Knox, KY; the display at the Airborne and Special Operations Museum in Fayetteville, NC and one at the private Military Vehicle Technology Foundation in Palo Alto, CA.

At least one example has recently appeared at the Latrun Museum in Israel, having been shipped from the United States with fading 3/73rd Armor, 82nd Abn. markings.


3 posted on 07/20/2004 12:03:43 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: All


Veterans for Constitution Restoration is a non-profit, non-partisan educational and grassroots activist organization. The primary area of concern to all VetsCoR members is that our national and local educational systems fall short in teaching students and all American citizens the history and underlying principles on which our Constitutional republic-based system of self-government was founded. VetsCoR members are also very concerned that the Federal government long ago over-stepped its limited authority as clearly specified in the United States Constitution, as well as the Founding Fathers' supporting letters, essays, and other public documents.





Actively seeking volunteers to provide this valuable service to Veterans and their families.


UPDATED THROUGH APRIL 2004




The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul

Click on Hagar for
"The FReeper Foxhole Compiled List of Daily Threads"

4 posted on 07/20/2004 12:04:00 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: Diva Betsy Ross; Americanwolf; CarolinaScout; Tax-chick; Don W; Poundstone; Wumpus Hunter; ...



FALL IN to the FReeper Foxhole!



It's TreadHead Tuesday!


Good Morning Everyone


If you would like added to our ping list let us know.

5 posted on 07/20/2004 12:04:46 AM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: snippy_about_it

!!!!!!!!


6 posted on 07/20/2004 12:06:28 AM PDT by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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To: stand watie

Morning stand watie.


7 posted on 07/20/2004 12:09:56 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: snippy_about_it

Good Night Snippy. I need to try and get some sleep. Been pushing too hard. Lend me some hours from your day?


8 posted on 07/20/2004 12:11:10 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: SAMWolf
GM, Sam!

BUT i'm off to bed.ZZZZZZZZ!

it's been a long, but productive day.

free dixie,sw

9 posted on 07/20/2004 12:11:38 AM PDT by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -T. Jefferson)
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To: SAMWolf

I don't have any hours! How about we just sleep for about 24 and say to heck with it!


10 posted on 07/20/2004 12:12:08 AM PDT by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: stand watie
Night stand watie.

it's been a long, but productive day.

For me too. Been a while since I could say that.

11 posted on 07/20/2004 12:13:25 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: snippy_about_it
How about we just sleep for about 24 and say to heck with it!

Sounds like a plan, but you know it'll never happen.

12 posted on 07/20/2004 12:14:13 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: SAMWolf
Very interesting, kept me up a bit longer than I planned, but must turn it.

Morning will be here too soon anyway!
13 posted on 07/20/2004 12:48:59 AM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (New Linux SUSE Pro 9.1 user here.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Morning comes early, unless you're at work. Then it can't come soon enough!


14 posted on 07/20/2004 1:17:37 AM PDT by Don W (It's not our abilities that make us who we are, it's our choices.)
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To: snippy_about_it
Good morning Snippy.


15 posted on 07/20/2004 1:56:28 AM PDT by Aeronaut (There never was a bad man that had ability for good service. -- Edmund Burke)
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To: snippy_about_it

Good morning, Snippy and everyone at the Freeper Foxhole. It's hot and humid here in SW Ok. this Treadhead Tuesday.


16 posted on 07/20/2004 3:01:21 AM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: E.G.C.; snippy_about_it; SAMWolf

HVAP bump for Treadhead Tuesday

The Sheridan reminds me of what one guy said about the Ryobi BT3000 Precison Table Saw

"A lot of good engineering ideas poorly executed"

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger E.G.C. at 5:30am here in Kansas City it is 77F with 75% humidity. Sound like a good day to do some inside work.

Keep cool Y'all

Regards

alfa6 ;>}


17 posted on 07/20/2004 3:38:30 AM PDT by alfa6 (Mrs. Murphy's Postulate on Murphy's Law: Murphy Was an Optimist)
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; All

July 20, 2004

Does God Love Me?

Read: Romans 5:6-11

We love Him because He first loved us. —1 John 4:19

Bible In One Year: Psalms 26-28; Acts 22


It's not easy to understand the depth of God‘s love for us. Because of our pride and fear, we fail to grasp how undeserving we are and how free His love is.

At times I struggle with pride, so I tend to believe that I have earned any love I receive. Pride tells me that I am loved only when I am lovable, respectable, and worthy.

At other times I feel the tug of fear. Deep down inside, I know that I don‘t deserve the love I get. My motives are never pure, and I fear I will be rejected if they are exposed. So even while I am basking in acceptance, I live with the fear of being unmasked, revealing that I am much less than what others think me to be.

When I consider my relationship with God, therefore, I tend to feel that His affection for me is based on my performance. When I do well, He loves me; but if I foul up, then I expect only His scorn.

Yet God does not love us because we deserve it. He loves us in spite of what we are. In 1 John 4:10 we read,“In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son." Because of what Jesus Christ has done for us, we know we are always loved by God. That simple truth shatters our pride and dispels our fear. —Haddon Robinson

Oh, such love, my soul, still ponder-—
Love so great, so rich, so free!
Say, while lost in holy wonder,
“Why, O Lord, such love to me?” —Kent


No one is beyond the reach of God’s love.

18 posted on 07/20/2004 4:39:09 AM PDT by The Mayor (By one Manís obedience many will be made righteous.)
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To: snippy_about_it
Good morning looks to be another HOT muggy day here in Memphis, my central air is OUT, and the AC man says I need a new unit, it's 16 years old.


19 posted on 07/20/2004 5:13:50 AM PDT by GailA ( hanoi john, I'm for the death penalty for terrorist, before I impose a moratorium on it.)
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To: SAMWolf

AKA the "Shank" and not in a complimentary manner. It was a most advanced design, too far ahead and too poorly tested.


20 posted on 07/20/2004 5:14:07 AM PDT by gatorbait (Yesterday, today and tomorrow......The United States Army)
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To: snippy_about_it; bentfeather; Samwise
Good morning ladies. Flag-o-gram.


Brigadier General James H. Doolittle, USAAF

Poses beside an Army Air Forces recruiting poster alluding to his April 1942 bombing raid on Japan. Photograph was taken circa 1943.

Official U.S. Air Force Photograph.

21 posted on 07/20/2004 5:27:11 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (The white gibberish on the blue screen says " Kill them. Kill them all!")
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To: SAMWolf; snippy_about_it; Professional Engineer; PhilDragoo; Matthew Paul; All

Good morning everyone.

22 posted on 07/20/2004 5:39:51 AM PDT by Soaring Feather
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To: Professional Engineer

Morning PE.

My Uncle's family was a relative of Jimmy Doolittle. I in inherited many pictures of my aunt and uncle standing in front of the Doolittle headstone.


23 posted on 07/20/2004 5:47:16 AM PDT by Soaring Feather
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To: GailA

Not to be mean but when is Memphis not hot and muggy in the summer:-)

Thanks for the pancakes maybe I will get some energy to work on the house so I can get finished...

or maybe I will just go back to sleep

Good luck with the AC, I used to do some HVAC work sorry i can't be of any further help

Regards

alfa6 ;>}


24 posted on 07/20/2004 5:48:01 AM PDT by alfa6 (Mrs. Murphy's Postulate on Murphy's Law: Murphy Was an Optimist)
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To: SAMWolf

On This Day In History


Birthdates which occurred on July 20:
1304 Francesco Petrarch Italy, poet (Italia Mia)
1519 Innocent IX 230th Roman Catholic pope (1591)
1785 Mahmud II Ottoman sultan, Westernizer, reformer
1824 Alexander Schimmelfennig, Prussia, Brig General (Union volunteers)
1890 Theda Bara actress/vamp (Under Two Flags, Cleopatra) (or 0729)
1890 Verna Felton Salinas Calif, actress (Hilda-December Bride)
1919 Sir Edmund Hillary one of 1st 2 men to scale Mt Everest (namesake of the EX firstlady)
1920 Elliot L Richardson Attorney General (1973)/Sec of Defense (1973)
1924 Thomas Berger US, novelist (Vital Parts, Little Big Man)
1933 Nelson Doubleday publisher (Doubleday)/owner (NY Mets)
1938 Diana Rigg Doncaster England, actress (Emma Peel-Avengers)
1938 Jo Ann Campbell Jacksonville Fla, Lawrence Welk's champagne lady
1938 Natalie Wood [Natasha Gurdin], SF, (Gypsy, Rebel Without a Cause)
1939 Judy Chicago [Cohen], Chicago, artist (The Dinner Party)
1940 Tony Oliva ball player, batting champ (AL Rookie of Year 1964)
1941 Vladimir A Lyakhov cosmonaut (Soyuz 32, T-9)
1943 John Lodge bassist (Moody Blues)
1947 Carlos Santana Mexico, musician (Santana-Black Magic Woman)
1957 Donna Dixon Va, actress, Mrs Dan Ackwoyd (Couch Trip, Bossom Buddies)



Deaths which occurred on July 20:
1609 Federico Zuccari Italian Mannerist painter, dies (birth date unknown)
1031 Robert II de Vrome, King of France (996-1031), dies
1454 Johan II, King of Castille, dies at 49
1636 John Oldham, trader in Mass, murdered by indians
1752 John C Pepusch, English composer (Beggar's Opera), dies at about 85
1819 John Playfair, Scottish geologist/mathematician, dies
1923 Pancho Villa, [Doroteo Arango], Mexican rebel, murdered at 55
1944 Brandt, col/German staff chief, dies in bombing
1944 Claus Schenk von Stauffenberg, count/German antifascist colonel, dies
1944 Friedrich Olbricht, German general (July 20th plotter), executed
1944 Heinz Burns, German (Olympic-gold-1936), dies in bombing
1944 Korten, chef gen of Germany Luftwaffe, dies in bomb explosion
1944 Ludwig Beck, gen/chief Germany general staff (July 20th plot), dies
1944 Mertz, German colonel (July 20th plotter), executed
1944 Rudolf Schmundt, gen/Hitler's Army adjunct, dies from wounds
1944 Werner von Haeffen, German lieutenant (July 20th plotter), executed
1951 Abdullah Ibn Hussein Jordan's King assassinated in Jerusalem
1951 Mustafa Shuqri Ashu, tailor/murderer of king Abdullah, shot to death
1954 Blair Moody (Sen-Mich), dies at 52
1973 Bruce Lee, [Lee Yuen Kam], actor (Enter the Dragon), dies at 32
1983 Frank Reynolds news anchor (ABC Evening News), dies at 59
1995 Helmut Erich Robert Gernsheim, photographer/collector, dies at 82


Reported: MISSING in ACTION
1966 BARBAY LAWRENCE---BATON ROUGE LA.
[03/04/73 RELEASED BY DRV, ALIVE AND WELL 98]
1966 DILLON DAVID A.---SPRING VALLEY CA.
1966 HUBBARD EDWARD L.---SHAWNEE MISSION KS.
[03/04/73 RELEASED BY DRV,ALIVE AND WELL 98]
1966 LEWIS MERRILL R.---INDIANOLA IA.
[REMAINS RETURNED 08/29/89]
1966 MC DANIEL NORMAN A.---FAYETTEVILLE NC.
[02/12/73 RELEASED BY DRV, ALIVE AND WELL 98]
1966 MEANS WILLIAM H.---TOPEKA KS.
[02/12/73 RELEASED BY DRV, DECEASED]
1966 NELSON WILLIAM HUMPHREY---FILION MI.
[09/30/77 REMAINS RETURNED BY SRV]
1966 NOBERT CRAIG R.---AVON CT.
1966 PERKINS GLENDON W.---ORLANDO FL.
[02/12/73 RELEASED BY DRV, ALIVE AND WELL 98]
1969 SMILEY STANLEY K.---SIDNEY NE.

POW / MIA Data & Bios supplied by the P.O.W. NETWORK. Skidmore, MO. USA.


On this day...
0514 St Hormisdas begins his reign as Catholic Pope
1031 Henry I succeeds father Robert II as King of France
1773 Scottish settlers arrive at Pictou, Nova Scotia (Canada)
1801 Elisha Brown Jr pressed a 1,235 pound cheese ball at his farm
1808 Napoleon decrees all French Jews adopt family names
1810 Colombia declared independence from Spain
1858 Fee 1st charged to see a baseball game (50cents) (NY beats Bkln 22-18)
1861 Confederate state's congress began holding sessions in Richmond, Va
1862 Guerrilla campaign in GA (Porter's and Poindexter's)
1864 Battle at Stephenson's Depot Virginia: 200 killed or injured
1864 Battle of Peachtree Creek-Atlanta Campaign
1868 1st use of tax stamps on cigarettes
1871 British Columbia becomes 6th Canadian province
1872 Mahlon Loomis receives patent for wireless ... the radio is born
1876 1st US intercollegiate track meet held, Saratoga, NY; Princeton wins
1881 Sioux Indian leader Sitting Bull, surrenders to federal troops
1890 Snow & hail in Calais, ME
1894 2000 fed troops recalled from Chicago, having ended Pullman strike
1903 Giuseppe Sarto elected Pope Pius X
1912 Phillies Sherry Magee steals home twice in 1 game
1914 Armed resistance against British rule begins in Ulster
1917 Pact of Corfu signed: Serbs, Croats and Slovenes form Yugoslavia
1917 WW I draft lottery held; #258 is 1st drawn
1922 Togo made a mandate of the League of Nations
1925 Beirut sultan Pasja al-Atrasj calls Druzen for holy war against France

1927 Lindbergh begins NY flight (Spirit of St Louis)

1930 106ø F (41ø C), Washington, DC (district record)
1933 Vatican state secretary Pacelli (Pius XII) signs accord with Hitler
1934 118ø F (48ø C), Keokuk, Iowa (state record)
1938 Finland awarded 1940 Olympic games after Japan withdraws
1942 Legion of Merit Medal authorized by congress
1942 Women's Army Auxiliary Corps began basic training at Fort Des Moines
1943 Joint Chiefs of Staff question adm Nimitz (landing Gilbert Island)
1944 Pres FDR nominated for an unprecedented 4th term at Dem convention
1944 US invades Japanese-occupied Guam in WW II
1944 Browns Nelson Potter is 1st pitcher suspended for throwing spitballs

1944 Von Stauffenberg fails on an attempt on Hitler's life

1948 Syngman Rhee elected president of South-Korea
1948 US Communist Party chairman William Forster arrested
1949 Israel's 19 month war of independence ends
1950 "Arthur Murray Party" premiers on ABC TV (later DuMont, CBS, NBC)
1954 Armistice for Indo-China signed, Vietnam separates into North and South
1956 France recognizes Tunisia's independence
1960 1st submerged submarine to fire Polaris missile (George Washington)
1960 USSR recovered 2 dogs; 1st living organisms to return from space
1963 Verne Gagne beats Crusher Lisowski in Minneapolis, to become NWA champ
1964 1st surfin' record to go #1-Jan & Dean's "Surf City"
1965 46.18 cm (18.18") of rainfall, Edgarton, Missouri (state 24-hr record)
1967 Race riots in Memphis Tenn
1968 Iron Butterfly's "In-a-gadda-da-vida" becomes the 1st heavy metal song to hit the charts, it comes in at #117


1969 1st men on Moon, Neil Armstrong & Edwin Aldrin, Apollo 11


1970 1st baby born on Alcatraz Island
1974 Turkey invades Cyprus
1976 US Viking 1 lands on Mars at Chryse Planitia, 1st Martian landing
1979 44-kg Newfoundland dog pulls 2293-kg load, Bothell, Wash
1985 Divers find wreck of Spanish galleon Atocha
1988 Michael Dukakis selected Democratic presidential nominee
1989 93ø F, highest overnight low ever recorded in Phoenix Arizona
1990 Justice William Brennan resigns from the Supreme Court after 36 years
1991 Mike Tyson is accused of raping a Miss Black America contestant
1992 Seven people were killed when a test model of the Marine Corps' controversial V-22 Osprey transport aircraft crashed into the Potomac River
1993 Deputy White House counsel Vincent Foster was found shot to death in a park in northern Virginia. His death was ruled a suicide.
1994 OJ Simpson offers $500,000 reward for evidence of ex-wife's killer (FOUR!)
1999 After 38 years at the bottom of the Atlantic, astronaut Gus Grissom's Liberty Bell 7 Mercury capsule surfaced.
2000 A federal grand jury indicted two former Utah Olympic officials for their alleged roles in paying $1 million in cash and gifts to help bring the 2002 games to Salt Lake City.


Holidays
Note: Some Holidays are only applicable on a given "day of the week"

Columbia-1819, Tunisia-1956 : Independence Day/D¡a de la Independencia
US : Moon Day (1969)
US : National Nap Day
National Lamb and Wool Month


Religious Observances
RC : Comm of St Margaret of Antioch, virgin/martyr (3rd cen)
Old Catholic : Feast of St Jerome Emiliani, confessor
St. Wilgefortis Feast Day
Commemoration of Elijah (Elias), greatest of the prophets (Roman and Greek Churches).


Religious History
1648 The Westminster Larger Catechism was adopted by the General Assembly of the Churchof Scotland at Edinburgh. This and the Shorter Catechism have both been in regular use amongPresbyterians, Baptists and Congregationalists ever since.
1726 Colonial clergyman Jonathan Edwards, 23, married Sarah Pierpont, 16. Theirmarriage prospered for over 30 years, before his premature death in 1758. Sarah herself diedonly six months later, at 48.
1877 Birth of Jesse Overholtzer, who in 1937 incorporated Child Evangelism Fellowshipin Chicago. Today the CEF mission agency works in over 60 countries worldwide.
1910 The Christian Endeavor Society of Missouri began a campaign to ban all motionpictures that depicted kissing between non-relatives.
1962 Pope John XXIII sent invitations to all 'separated Christian churches andcommunities,' asking each to send delegate-observers to the upcoming Vatican II EcumenicalCouncil in Rome.

Source: William D. Blake. ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1987.


Thought for the day :
"Liberty is always dangerous, but it is the safest thing we have."


Things To Do If You Ever Became An Evil Overlord...
See a competent psychiatrist and get cured of all extremely unusual phobias and bizarre compulsive habits which could prove to be a disadvantage


PUNishment of the the day...
Working for the IRS is a hard job because it is so taxing.


Dumb Laws...
St. Cloud Minnesota:
Hamburgers may not be eaten on Sundays.



How to Annoy Osama bin Laden If You're Invited To A Dinner Party At His Secret Afghan Lair...
Mine his bathroom.


25 posted on 07/20/2004 7:00:18 AM PDT by Valin (Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Good Morning Ernest_at_the_Beach. Looks like we had a quite a late night crowd.


26 posted on 07/20/2004 7:15:37 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Good Morning Ernest_at_the_Beach. Looks like we had a quite a late night crowd.


27 posted on 07/20/2004 7:15:41 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: Don W
Morning comes early, unless you're at work. Then it can't come soon enough!

There's a tagline in there somewhere.

28 posted on 07/20/2004 7:16:29 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: Aeronaut

Morning Aeronaut.


29 posted on 07/20/2004 7:16:53 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: E.G.C.

Morning E.G.C. We've had a long spell of hot and not too humid. I'm ready for a break.


30 posted on 07/20/2004 7:17:38 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: alfa6
Morning alfa6.

IMHO the Sheridan just didn't know what it wanted to be.

152mm Gun-launcher
Armored Reconnaissance
Airborne Assault Vehicle

Even the name is confusing. :-)

31 posted on 07/20/2004 7:21:00 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: The Mayor
Morning Mayor.

No one is beyond the reach of God’s love.

You know, deep down, I know that's true but there are some people I just can't see even God loving.

32 posted on 07/20/2004 7:23:41 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: SAMWolf

Yes the ammo was a major problem. Not only could the shell casing catch fire from initiation from the outside, it was quite fragile and had a tendency to break up. The same system was on the M60 A3 tank. The idea was good but it just didn't work.

If the Army wanted a gun/missle launcher, I always felt they should have developed something around a recoiless rifle such as the 106mm Recoiless. They may have had to go to a bigger bore, but it would have given the infantry a weapon that could have been mounted on a jeep or whatever that could fire a long range missle at a tank or a conventional shell act a bunker. This would have been a lot more cost effective than firing a TOW or Dragon at some guy hiding behind a pile of sand.

Actually they could have used the 106mm or 90mm by the use of an over caliber missle with the gun providing the initial launch. This would have been a rocket assisted, recoiless rifle, guided missle. If you want to see a smaller of version of this, behold the RPG 7 which is exactly a rocket assisted, recoiless laucher.


33 posted on 07/20/2004 7:24:33 AM PDT by U S Army EOD (John Kerry, the mother of all flip floppers.)
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To: GailA
Morning GailA. Sure looks like there's a lot of "hot and Humid" going around today.

my central air is OUT, and the AC man says I need a new unit

It figures. :-(

34 posted on 07/20/2004 7:24:59 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: gatorbait
Morning gatorbait.

AKA the "Shank" and not in a complimentary manner.

I wonder if anyone ever had anything complimentary to say about the M551.

35 posted on 07/20/2004 7:28:20 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: Valin

If you really want to get to bin Laden, infect his camels and goat heard with Aids.


36 posted on 07/20/2004 7:28:20 AM PDT by U S Army EOD (John Kerry, the mother of all flip floppers.)
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To: Professional Engineer

Morning PE.

LOL! Love the poster!! Never saw that one before.


37 posted on 07/20/2004 7:29:07 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: bentfeather

Morning Feather.


38 posted on 07/20/2004 7:29:22 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: E.G.C.

A "hot & humid" Morning to you!

I walked out this morning and it felt as hot & humid at 08:30 as it did at 3PM yesterday..... Gonna be an egg fryer today.


39 posted on 07/20/2004 7:29:46 AM PDT by Johnny Gage (Q: Why did Wellstone's plane crash?...... FAA Ruling: Aircraft had TWO left wings.)
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To: SAMWolf

Well in the M551's defense, when it first came out, we all thought it looked kind of neat, but I guess that's about it.


40 posted on 07/20/2004 7:30:48 AM PDT by U S Army EOD (John Kerry, the mother of all flip floppers.)
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To: Valin
1944 Von Stauffenberg fails on an attempt on Hitler's life

After Adolf Hitler, Hermann Goering and Heinrich Himmler had been assassinated, it was planned for troops in Berlin to seize key government buildings, telephone and signal centres and radio stations.

At least six attempts were aborted before Claus von Stauffenberg decided on trying again during a conference attended by Hitler on July 20, 1944. It was decided to drop plans to kill Goering and Himmler at the same time. Stauffenberg, who had never met Hitler before, carried the bomb in a briefcase and placed it on the floor while he left to make a phone-call. The bomb exploded killing four men in the hut. Hitler's right arm was badly injured but he survived the bomb blast.

The plan was for Ludwig Beck, Erwin von Witzleben and Friedrich Fromm to take control of the German Army. This idea was abandoned when it became known that Adolf Hitler had survived the assassination attempt. In an attempt to protect himself, Fromm organized the execution of Claus von Stauffenberg along with two other conspirators, Friedrich Olbricht and Werner von Haeften, in the courtyard of the War Ministry. It was later reported the Stauffenberg died shouting "Long live free Germany".

As a result of the July Plot, the new chief of staff, Heinz Guderian demanded the resignation of any officer who did not fully support the ideals of the Nazi Party. Over the next few months Guderian sat with Gerd von Rundstedt and Wilhelm Keitel on the Army Court of Honor that expelled hundreds of officers suspected of being opposed to the policies of Adolf Hitler. This removed them from court martial jurisdiction and turned them over to Roland Freisler and his People's Court.

Over the next few months most of the group, including Wilhelm Canaris, Carl Goerdeler, Julius Leber, Ulrich Hassell, Hans Oster, Peter von Wartenburg, Henning von Tresckow, Ludwig Beck, Erwin von Witzleben and Friedrich Fromm, were either executed or committed suicide.

It is etimated that 4,980 Germans were executed after the July Plot. Hitler decided that the leaders should have a slow death. They were hung with piano wire from meat-hooks. Their executions were filmed and later shown to senior members of both the NSDAP and the armed forces.

41 posted on 07/20/2004 7:34:50 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: U S Army EOD
Morning EOD

If you want to see a smaller of version of this, behold the RPG 7 which is exactly a rocket assisted, recoiless laucher.

I could never figure out why we never developed a decent equivalent to the RPG.

42 posted on 07/20/2004 7:37:08 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: U S Army EOD
we all thought it looked kind of neat

Ok I'll give you that, I thought it looked kinda neat too. There's a novel called "Fire Arrow" about a major hostage rescue mission in Libya in which the M551 is featured prominently.

43 posted on 07/20/2004 7:41:44 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: SAMWolf

Because the 90mm Recoiless is a better weapon. Of course we had the LAW and what ever replaced it.

If you are armed with an RPG then that is about all you can carry. With a LAW, everyone can carry one or two. If you want a dedicated weapon, you had the 90mm Recoiless.

When we went to the TOW and Dragon, we got rid of the 106mm and 90mm. This took away a cheap HE shell for the infrantry. We still could develop a laucher or missle that could be used with the 106mm or 90mm recoiless and give a cheap shell to shoot at cheap targets.


44 posted on 07/20/2004 7:45:11 AM PDT by U S Army EOD (John Kerry, the mother of all flip floppers.)
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To: SAMWolf
However on the other side, the M60 A3 tank with the 152mm gun/luncher looked kind of stupid. It definitely did not look as neat as its sisters with the 105mm.
45 posted on 07/20/2004 7:48:39 AM PDT by U S Army EOD (John Kerry, the mother of all flip floppers.)
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To: SAMWolf

Lets not forget Dietrich Bonhoeffer.


46 posted on 07/20/2004 7:58:39 AM PDT by Valin (Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.)
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To: SAMWolf
IMPRESSIVE!


47 posted on 07/20/2004 8:37:17 AM PDT by Professional Engineer (The white gibberish on the blue screen says " Kill them. Kill them all!")
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To: U S Army EOD

IIRC the recoiless rifle was pretty popular around the Korean war.

The problem with the LAW was that it was a one shot weapon. The RPG is relatively cheap , very effective and reusable.


48 posted on 07/20/2004 9:02:45 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: U S Army EOD
M60 A3 tank with the 152mm gun/launcher looked kind of stupid.

Yeah, it did look like some kind of bastard child. :-) Of course the M60 never really looked cool anyway.

49 posted on 07/20/2004 9:04:53 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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To: Professional Engineer

That is a nice shot.


50 posted on 07/20/2004 9:06:03 AM PDT by SAMWolf (This tagline does not require Micro$oft Windows.)
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