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The FReeper Foxhole's TreadHead Tuesday - Chinese Type 98 Series MBT - Mar 15th, 2005
www.China-Defense.com ^ | Jim Warford

Posted on 03/14/2005 10:14:01 PM PST by SAMWolf



Lord,

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Grant them a safe and swift return...

Bless those who mourn the lost.
.

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for all those serving their country at this time.


.................................................................. .................... ...........................................

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The Chinese Type 98 Main Battle Tank:
A New Beast from the East




On October 1, 1999, during a parade in Beijing marking the 50th anniversary of the People's Republic of China, the world got a look at the current Chinese armored force, including a first glimpse of the new Type 98 main battle tank (MBT). This huge parade, the first since 1984, reportedly involved 500,000 PLA personnel, and provided an unprecedented view of the Chinese army's latest weaponry and equipment.

The PLA paraded three different tank types, with one of the most significant surprises being the new Type 98, which resembles a Russian T-72 MBT with a new and well-protected "box-like" turret. The Type 98 (and other improved and evolving armored vehicles like it) represent a potentially significant and continuing heavy threat confronting U.S. Army forces in the future.

While two of the tanks paraded by the PLA were shown for the first time in their latest forms - the Type 80-III/Type 88B and the Type 85-III/Type 88C - the Type 98 had never before been seen in public. This tank, also known as the WZ-123, represents a significant improvement in Chinese MBT development.


Two Type 98s on parade in October, 1999. The tanks's 125mm main gun may be using depleted uranium ammunition, according to some reports.


The Type 98 actually began during the continuing development of another Chinese tank known as the Type 90-II/Type 90-IIM. In late 1991, the China North Industries Corporation (NORINCO) re-leased initial information describing the development of the Type 90-II. Reportedly, a deal had been signed in May 1990 between China and Pakistan allowing for the production of this new tank in Pakistan. As of early 1999, however, the Type 90-II had still not been put into production in either China or Pakistan.

Although the Chinese consider the Type 90-II a tank development for the export market, there apparently is a future for the tank in Pakistan. In January 1998, a photograph was published showing the Prime Minister of Pakistan in the driver's position of an "Al-Khalid" or P-90 MBT. The photo confirms that the Al-Khalid is either based on the Type 90-II or is, in fact, the same tank. Pakistani press reports in August 1999 finally con-firmed that the Al-Khalid is now in production at the Heavy Industries facility in Taxila, Pakistan. Reportedly, this new tank has evolved into a three-way development effort between China, Pakistan, and Ukraine, with Ukrainian support focused on the addition of the 6TD 1200-hp diesel engine. Finally, the Chinese exhibited a model of the Al-Khalid labeled the "Type 2000" tank in 1999. According to the available information, the Type 2000 tank is the international version of the Al-Khalid currently being marketed by the Chinese.


Pakistan's Al-Khalid MBT


Since the Type 90-II/Type 90-IIM failed to meet expectations during trials in China, a major effort was initiated to improve its performance. Unconfirmed reports claim that in 1997 the Russians conducted a series of secret demonstrations of Russian MBTs in China at a PLA tank test-center in the city of Zhang Jia Kou. Reportedly, these demonstrations pushed the PLA to demand even better performance from its next MBT. That new, previously unseen tank was shown for the first time in model form during an exhibition in Beijing in 1999. The model clearly showed a new tank development, which combined a T-72-like hull with a new "box-like" turret. Additionally, the tank model was fitted with what appear to be hunter-killer style optics for the commander and gunner, a wind sensor, and two new devices on the turret roof (see photo at left). Undoubtedly timed to coincide with the October 1st parade, photos of this new tank on maneuvers with the PLA suddenly appeared in the Chinese press. While the exact role and designation for this tank are unconfirmed, it is probably a prototype of the Type 98, known as the Type 96 MBT. It is safe to say, however, that the Type 96 is not exactly the same tank that was in the anniversary parade through Beijing.



TOPICS: VetsCoR
KEYWORDS: armor; china; freeperfoxhole; pla; tanks; treadhead; type90ii; type98; veterans
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Perhaps the most interesting characteristic of the Type 98 is the addition of what appears to be a previously unknown active self-defense system. Unlike contemporary Russian active tank self-defense systems like Drozd, Drozd-2, and Arena, which launch projectiles to disable or "shoot-down" incoming anti-tank missiles and projectiles, the Chinese system apparently uses a high-powered laser to directly attack the enemy weapon's optics and gunner. The system includes what appears to be a laser warning receiver (LWR - the dome-shaped device on the turret roof behind the commander's position), that warns the crew that their tank is being illuminated by an enemy range-finding or weapon-guidance laser. The turret of the tank can then be traversed to face the direction of the enemy threat, and the laser self-defense weapon (LSDW - the box-shaped device on the turret roof behind the gunner's position), can be employed against the source of the enemy laser.


Elevated view of the Type 98 reveals detail of the box-like turret roof, new optics for the commander and gunner, and the triangular lifting eyes along the turret upper edge. The Laser Self-Defense Weapon can be seen on the gunner's left.


While the engagement procedure of the Type 98's self-defense laser is unknown, published reports concerning similar weapons describe a procedure where the laser weapon would first use a low-powered beam to locate the optics of the enemy weapon. Once the enemy weapon was located, the power level of the laser would be immediately and dramatically increased. Such an attack would disable the guidance optics of the enemy weapon and/or damage the eyesight of the enemy gunner.

The turret-mounted system carried by the Type 98 is very similar to a tripod-mounted laser weapon that was seen for the first time at an arms exhibition in Manila in 1995. Identified at the exhibition as the "Laser Interference Device," it matched the description of a known Chinese laser weapon called the ZM-87. According to its promotional information, one of the ZM-87's major uses is to "injure or dizzy targeted individuals." The ZM-87 can reportedly injure the human eye at 2-3 kms, this rising to over 5 kms using a 7-power magnification device. Additionally, short-term "flaring blind-ness" can be inflicted on the human eye at up to 10 kms. The ZM-87 and the laser weapon carried by the Type 98 should not be confused with electro-optical "dazzlers" like those turret-mounted de-vices used by the Iraqis during Operation Desert Storm. Those Iraqi devices (some of which are believed to have been supplied by the Chinese), are designed to confuse the tracking systems of Western/NATO anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs), without directly attacking the controlling optics or the eyesight of the weapon's gunner. The available photos of the Type 96 have also confirmed that the laser weapon can be elevated to a higher angle than the tank's main gun, indicating that the engagement of attack helicopters is possible.


Chinese Type 98 MBTs on the parade in Beijing in October, 1999. Note the new hull skirts, rubber padded tracks, and the raised turret roof.


The Type 98 reportedly weighs 50 tons and is powered by a new 1200-hp diesel engine. As far as armor protection is concerned, some initial observations can be made. Generally speaking, the Type 98's turret is larger than the turrets of other PLA tanks. More importantly, the turret has been lengthened or extended forward, creating a noticeable gap between the lower edge of the turret-front and the hull decking. This new gap is most visible just to the right and left of the driver's position (see photo on top of next page). It is very likely that the Chinese decided to increase/improve the turret frontal armor protecting the Type 98 to the point where extending the turret forward became a requirement.

For comparison, the Type 90-II/Type 90-IIM prototypes, which carry a smaller turret and are two tons lighter, do not have this tell-tale gap between the turret frontal armor and the tank's hull decking. While details concerning the type and design of the Type 98's armor are lacking, there is the possibility that its armor is based on, or influenced by, the Russian T-80U MBT. When the PLA's relatively recent purchase of Russian T-80Us is combined with what was learned during the parade, a Russian armor connection is certainly possible. Like the T-80U, the Type 98 incorporates turret frontal armor cavities (one on either side of the main gun - clearly visible when viewed from above), covered by plates which are fitted flush and bolted to the turret roof. The purpose of these cavities may be to allow the composite contents of each cavity to be easily upgraded and changed during the life of the tank.


Chinese Type 98 tanks are seen in the first three ranks, followed by earlier Type 88CS in this parade photo.


In addition to these frontal armor cavities, the construction of the turret itself may provide some insights into the Type 98's armor. Close examination of the turret roof reveals that the portion of the roof above the crew compartment is raised and slightly rounded when compared to the lower and flat area of the roof above the frontal armor arrays. Additionally, there has been speculation that the Type 98's turret is actually manufactured in two parts, consisting of a cast crew compartment protected by box-like frontal armor arrays or "packs" that are welded in-place. A close look at the turret roof also reveals prominent welding seams or "beads" that run from the turret front (on either side of the main gun), back to the raised portion of the roof.

When the Type 98 was first seen during the rehearsal for the parade, it was initially incorrectly identified as the Type 90-II/Type 90-IIM. Photos taken during the actual parade, however, confirmed that it was only a relative of the Type 90-II and was still different from the Type 96. The Type 98 incorporated a variety of subtle differences from the Type 96, including different style hull skirts, tracks with rubber pads, and a slightly different box-like device behind the gunner on the turret roof. The Type 98 is armed with a 125mm smoothbore main gun fed by a carousel autoloader. The source of this gun and autoloader, which allow the crew of the tank to be reduced to three men, is believed to be the former Soviet Union/ Russia. While not much is known about the tank's fire control system, it is fitted with a new stabilized independent sight for the commander.

1 posted on 03/14/2005 10:14:05 PM PST by SAMWolf
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To: snippy_about_it; PhilDragoo; Johnny Gage; Victoria Delsoul; The Mayor; Darksheare; Valin; ...
Finally, the Type 98's turret is fitted with six lifting "eyes;" four on the turret front (two on either side of the main gun) and two on the turret roof (one on either side of the main gun), just inside the welding seams on the flat part of the turret. While it's clear that these lifting eyes are not intended for lifting the entire turret, their purpose is still the subject of speculation. If they were used solely for the initial installation or attachment of the frontal armor arrays to the rest of the turret, it would be unnecessary to keep them fitted to the tanks after they left the factory. In fact, all 18 Type 98s that participated in the parade were fitted with the lifting eyes.


This Photo of the earlier Type 96 prototype shows the raised Laser Self-Defense Weapon and a dome-shaped Laser Warning Receiver on the rear of the turret roof. This model also had steel tracks.


All of this information concerning this new tank's turret seems to point to a very interesting possibility: that the lifting eyes may be intended to facilitate the removal, upgrade and/or modernization, and sub-sequent replacement of both turret frontal armor arrays. The triangular arrangement of the lifting eyes does generally support the use of a "T-shaped" lifting "sling" that would certainly be available in a variety of maintenance organizations. If true, this would mean that the Type 98's turret frontal armor could be completely changed on an as-needed basis. Like the Cold War "shell game" established by the evolution of Soviet/Russian tank turret armor, perhaps the Type 98 and the potential of its turret armor has ushered in a shell game all its own.

The production status of the Type 98 is still unclear. The group of Type 98s that participated in the Beijing parade may be prototypes. But unlike the infamous PLA tanks photographed crushing a historic rebellion in Beijing, the tanks that re-turned to Tianenmen Square for the 1999 parade provide a clear glimpse of both the present and the future of Chinese MBT development.


The earlier Type 90II/Type 90 IIM, seen here in a Manufacturer's with simulated add-on armor, did not meet China's expectations but maybe built for export.


Like the majority of potential threat military forces around the world, the PLA is modernizing at a significant pace. So fast, in fact, that many of the new weapons systems that remain on the drawing boards throughout the West are at risk of being surpassed by our potential opponents.

As the U.S. Army turns its focus inward and reconsiders the design of its own armored force, it could be a costly mistake to underestimate the heavy threat represented by tanks like the Chinese Type 98 - the Beast from the East.

Additional Sources:

www.globalsecurity.org
www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair
homepage3.nifty.com/ tompei
user1.7host.com/drno
www.ndu.edu

2 posted on 03/14/2005 10:15:06 PM PST by SAMWolf (Liberal Rule #3 - Arguments are lost only to bigots.)
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To: All
The New Chinese Type 98 MBT:
A Second Look Reveals More Details


Since the first article on the Chinese Type 98 MBT appeared in the May-June 2000 issue of ARMOR ("The Chinese Type 98 Main Battle Tank: A New Beast from the East"),[1] there has been additional information available regarding the tank's firepower, armor protection, and production-deployment status. This additional information actually confirms initial assessments and solidifies the serious threat posed by the Type 98.


The New Chinese Type 98 - Configuration of the turret roof, from left, includes the commander's independent sight, the Laser Warning Receiver, Wind Sensor, and the Laser Self-Defense weapon.


Since it was first seen during the rehearsals for the massive 50th Anniversary parade held in Beijing on October 1, 1999, observers have tried to piece together the small bits of available information concerning the Type 98. Photographs and video footage from the parade confirmed that the tank is armed with a 125mm smoothbore main gun, but very little was known about the ammunition it fires. Now there have been a series of unconfirmed reports that the Type 98 (and other Chinese 125mm-armed MBTs) use Israeli-designed APFSDS ammunition and that the Chinese have developed depleted uranium (DU) rounds for their tanks. As far as the Israelis are concerned, they are certainly marketing their M711 125mm APFSDS round to somebody, and the Chinese are a likely customer. The solution to the DU part of this equation was apparently displayed during a recent military exhibition in China that included Chinese 100mm DU ammunition. Although not specifically intended for the Type 98, this DU development clearly indicates that DU ammunition is available to the PLA. Interestingly enough, published reports have also recently confirmed that Pakistan is currently marketing at least two DU tank rounds. Pakistan is a close Chinese ally and currently employs both the Chinese 125mm-armed Type 85-IIAP MBT as well as the new limited production Al-Khalid MBT.


MBT 2000


Some of the most heated discussions relating to the Type 98 involve the tank's turret frontal armor protection. External examination confirms a major change in frontal armor, incorporating composite armor arrays and armor cavities on each side of the main gun. Similar in many ways to the turret armor cavities used on the Russian T-80U, T-72B, and T-90S MBTs, the Type 98's armor cavities are easily accessible through two cover-plates fitted flush with the turret roof and held in-place by eight bolts. These two composite armor cavities apparently evolved from a design seen on early prototypes of the Type 98. Unlike the two large cavities used on the production Type 98, these prototypes were fitted with two small cavities on each side of the main gun. According to published reports, these smaller cavities provided access to the mounting bolts that attached the composite armor arrays or modules to the turret base armor. This would allow damaged or obsolete armor arrays to be replaced by the tank crew while in the field. In fact, the Type 98 is also fitted with six lifting "eyes" which could be used with a T-shaped lifting sling to facilitate the replacement of the turret frontal armor modules under field conditions.



While the two large armor cavities on the Type 98 may also be used to provide access to these internal mounting bolts, they most likely also provide storage for some kind of removable composite armor material. Although the design and configuration of the tank's composite armor remains unknown, published reports continue to hint at a relationship between the Type 98's armor and the armor protecting the Russian T-80U and T-80UK. While the "closeness" of this relationship is unknown, it's clear that the Chinese had complete knowledge of the armor protecting these two Russian tanks while they were working on the Type 98. The Type 98's armor configuration also implies that the Chinese may have received assistance from another source as well. The Israelis have done extensive work on updating the armor protecting their older tanks and the more modern Merkava MBT. The Merkava, in particular, is known to incorporate modular armor in its design. Several recently published photographs have appeared clearly showing Israeli Merkava Mk 3s in Lebanon fitted with new modular armor arrays unofficially called "Lebanon" armor. Published sources have confirmed that this Israeli modular armor is designed to be changed in the field.



One of the biggest mysteries surrounding the Type 98 is the tank's current production-deployment status. The fact that only 18 of the new tanks participated in the October 1st parade has led to additional speculation that the Type 98 may have only been produced in that quantity to make a point to parade observers. New information indicates, however, that the Type 98's role in the PLA may be much larger than these observers initially believed. The Chinese are currently mass-producing two MBTs, the 105mm-armed Type 88B and the 125mm-armed Type 88C, at their primary tank production facility, Factory No. 617. Published photos have confirmed that the Type 98 is in limited production at this same factory. Reportedly, only about a battalion-set of Type 98s have been produced (31 tanks) to date. When deployment of these new tanks is considered, however, this small group may actually be part of a much larger production and deployment effort.

According to unconfirmed reports, the PLA currently deploys 10 active tank divisions, each one supporting a Group Army (GA). Of these, the 38th and 39th GAs are generally considered the highest priority and best-equipped organizations in the PLA. The 38th GA's tank division (the 6th Tank Division) is also known as the "Digital" Tank Division, and is based in the Beijing Military Region. Conflicting reports place Type 98s in the 6th "Digital" Tank Division, as well as the 8th Tank Division (of the 26th GA). Additionally, reports have associated the Type 98 with the 7th Tank Division, which is reportedly being reorganized in the Beijing Military Region as a "blue tank brigade." All of this information supports the contention that there are more Type 98s being produced and deployed than initially believed.



The key remaining question is, "Where will the Chinese go from here?" The secrecy surrounding the future of the Type 98 is still fairly intact, but there is enough information available to piece together what may be next for the Type 98. A model of this next step for the Type 98 is actually just starting to roll off the production lines in Pakistan. The tank in question is the Al-Khalid and it could very well represent, not the actual tank, but a critical cooperative relationship between the Chinese and the Ukrainians. The Al-Khalid is the result of a three-way development effort involving China, Pakistan, and Ukraine. While the level of Ukrainian participation is unconfirmed, published reports have confirmed that the Al-Khalid uses a Ukrainian engine and transmission, and that a number of these same components were recently supplied directly to China. As opposed to developing a new tank, the Ukrainians have been hard at work rebuilding and upgrading their existing MBT designs, with the T-72-120, T-72MP, and T-80UD/ Object 478BEh clearly showing the results. In fact, the success of this effort can be seen by the recently completed delivery of 320 Ukrainian T-80UD/ Object 478BEh MBTs to Pakistan, which makes Ukraine the world's leading exporter of T-80 series tanks.

Interestingly enough, at about the same time the Ukrainians announced the development of their new 120mm-armed T-84-120 MBT, information concerning a new variant of the Chinese Type 98 called the Type 98B began to appear. The T-84-120 "Oplot" is a new variant of the Ukrainian T-84 MBT that mounts one of apparently two or three different 120mm main guns in a new turret, fitted with a bustle- mounted autoloader. The incorporation of a turret bustle-mounted auto-loader (instead of the Soviet/Russian style carousel autoloader) is a huge advance for Ukrainian tank design; and reaffirms the advantages and maturity of modern Ukrainian tanks over their Russian competitors. The T-84-120 (fitted with the Swiss Compact 120mm main gun) is the Ukrainian tank currently competing in the Turkish tank competition. This confirmed tank development relationship between China and Ukraine and the timely announcements revealing both the T-84-120 and the Type 98B, point to a relationship between these two designs. In fact, much of the speculation concerning the Type 98B includes its use of a bustle-mounted autoloader in a new turret.



The Type 98 is a significant tank for the Chinese and for their potential adversaries. It represents a modern heavy armor threat in an era where some countries seem to be moving away from the proven mobile protected fire-power offered by the MBT. One thing is clear, the Type 98 is a post-Desert Storm tank that incorporates the lessons the Chinese learned from that conflict; lessons that will characterize the next battlefield.


3 posted on 03/14/2005 10:15:51 PM PST by SAMWolf (Liberal Rule #3 - Arguments are lost only to bigots.)
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To: All


Veterans for Constitution Restoration is a non-profit, non-partisan educational and grassroots activist organization. The primary area of concern to all VetsCoR members is that our national and local educational systems fall short in teaching students and all American citizens the history and underlying principles on which our Constitutional republic-based system of self-government was founded. VetsCoR members are also very concerned that the Federal government long ago over-stepped its limited authority as clearly specified in the United States Constitution, as well as the Founding Fathers' supporting letters, essays, and other public documents.





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4 posted on 03/14/2005 10:16:30 PM PST by SAMWolf (Liberal Rule #3 - Arguments are lost only to bigots.)
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To: Bombardier; Steelerfan; SafeReturn; Brad's Gramma; AZamericonnie; SZonian; soldierette; shield; ...



"FALL IN" to the FReeper Foxhole!



It's TreadHead Tuesday!


Good Morning Everyone


If you would like added to our ping list let us know.
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5 posted on 03/14/2005 10:23:17 PM PST by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: mostly cajun; archy; Gringo1; Matthew James; Fred Mertz; Squantos; colorado tanker; The Shrew; ...
Free Republic Treadhead Ping





mostly cajun ;archy; Gringo1; Matthew James; Fred Mertz; Squantos; colorado tanker; The Shrew; SLB; Darksheare; BCR #226; IDontLikeToPayTaxes; Imacatfish; Tailback; DCBryan1; Eaker; Archangelsk; gatorbait; river rat; Lee'sGhost; Dionysius; BlueLancer; Frohickey; GregB; leadpenny; skepsel; Proud Legions; King Prout; Professional Engineer; alfa6; bluelancer; Cannoneer No.4; An Old Man; hookman; DMZFrank; in the Arena; Bethbg79; neverdem; NWU Army ROTC; ma bell; MoJo2001; The Sailor; dcwusmc; dts32041; spectr17; Rockpile; Theophilus;


************
Snippy, I bequeath to you the FR TH PL.

148 posted on 08/24/2004 11:39:45 AM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (I've lost turret power; I have my nods and my .50. Hooah. I will stay until relieved. White 2 out.)

Hey No.4, still home?
6 posted on 03/14/2005 10:26:02 PM PST by snippy_about_it (Fall in --> The FReeper Foxhole. America's History. America's Soul.)
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To: snippy_about_it; SAMWolf; All
Bunp for the Freeper Foxhole and Treadhead Tuesday

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

7 posted on 03/14/2005 10:28:38 PM PST by alfa6
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To: SAMWolf

New HOF Display Honors Packers War Hero. Smiley Johnson. (a WWII Pat Tillman story)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1362962/posts


8 posted on 03/14/2005 11:27:11 PM PST by quietolong
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To: SAMWolf
Significant system. The add on armor arrays are vividly visible in your posted overhead photos. Still cannot depress main gun enough to go hull down behind a hill crest.

Designed to be an Abrams killer, looks like. Abrams is vulnerable in many ways. That laser system is intended to blind the Abrams thermal imaging sight, obvious as can be, as well as the FLIR sights on antitank helicopters, besides disrupting targeting laser optics.

Cat is out of the bag, or I wouldn't mention it.
9 posted on 03/15/2005 2:01:13 AM PST by Iris7 (A man said, "That's heroism." "No, that's Duty," replied Roy Benavides, Medal of Honor.)
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To: snippy_about_it
Good morning Snippy.


10 posted on 03/15/2005 2:02:31 AM PST by Aeronaut (I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things - Saint-Exupery)
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To: snippy_about_it

Yep. Sitting in front of MY computer. Didn't have to sign in and don't have to get off it in 30 minutes. Nice.


11 posted on 03/15/2005 2:37:33 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Kandahar Airfield -- “We’re not on the edge of the world, but we can see it from here")
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To: SAMWolf
Ninth place goes to the new Chinese Type 98. This is another of those "improved T-72s." Lots of improvements, though, many of them similar to what's found in the Russian T-80UM2. The workmanship on these vehicles is a little better than on the T-80UM2, but the Chinese don't have as much experience building tanks. This has shown itself in the numerous technical glitches that have shown up. The Chinese are moving to volunteer crews and more intensive training.
12 posted on 03/15/2005 2:53:47 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Kandahar Airfield -- “We’re not on the edge of the world, but we can see it from here")
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To: snippy_about_it

Good morning, Snippy and everyone at the Freeper Foxhole.


13 posted on 03/15/2005 3:01:59 AM PST by E.G.C.
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To: snippy_about_it

Good morning, this is my quilt guild morning so I'll be heading out the door early.


14 posted on 03/15/2005 3:37:04 AM PST by GailA (Glory be to GOD and his only son Jesus.)
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To: snippy_about_it

Morning Snippy.


15 posted on 03/15/2005 3:37:04 AM PST by SAMWolf (Liberal Rule #3 - Arguments are lost only to bigots.)
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To: alfa6

Morning alfa6.

Treadhead Tuesday T-Shirt Time!!


16 posted on 03/15/2005 3:38:00 AM PST by SAMWolf (Liberal Rule #3 - Arguments are lost only to bigots.)
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To: Iris7

Morning Iris7.

And we're talking about cutting back on our MBT Force. :-(


17 posted on 03/15/2005 3:39:55 AM PST by SAMWolf (Liberal Rule #3 - Arguments are lost only to bigots.)
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To: Aeronaut

Morning Aeronaut.


18 posted on 03/15/2005 3:40:13 AM PST by SAMWolf (Liberal Rule #3 - Arguments are lost only to bigots.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Didn't have to sign in and don't have to get off it in 30 minutes

Life is good. ;-)

19 posted on 03/15/2005 3:40:49 AM PST by SAMWolf (Liberal Rule #3 - Arguments are lost only to bigots.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Most of the remaining tanks in the world are Russian T-72s and T-55s, and US M-60s and M-48s.

I knew that the Russian T-72 and T-55 were still around, they just about gave them to anyone who wanted them. Didn't know the M-60 and M-48 were still widely used.

20 posted on 03/15/2005 3:43:54 AM PST by SAMWolf (Liberal Rule #3 - Arguments are lost only to bigots.)
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