Posted on 04/10/2005 4:59:54 PM PDT by diverteach
And as far as being cruel, it's all in how it is taken isn't it.
No, subjectivism does not determine the truth of a matter. When you are always being led by your subjective feelings like that you will come to lots of wrong conclusions.
I don't have my feelings hurt at all,
Obviously you were offended or else you would not have made it an issue and made such a strong accusation of "cruelty". Be honest with yourself.
but there are kinder ways of saying "you really aren't as smart as I am because you don't read the Bible the same way I do".
That is not what I said at all, it's what your hypersensitive feelings read into it. It's what you wanted to see, not what was actually said.
I'm glad God is my judge and not you.
No one is judging your eternal destiny. Why do you feel so compelled to use such hyper-emotionalism.
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality” (1 Cor. 15:51-53).
Those passages are speaking of Resurrection, and not some secret, two-stage coming of Christ. Dispensationalists have twisted those passages, taken out of the context of the entirety of Scripture and made a myth out of them.
Thank you for clearing things up! Hal is wonderful and God has given him the "gift" of prophecy.
Hey, hold on there. All this time you have been saying that Hal Lindsey doesn't "make predictions", and now you are saying he is a prophet.
You can't have it both ways.
If Hal Lindsey has the "gift of prophecy", as you now claim, in contradiction to your earlier claims, then in accordance with Scripture he is to be scrutinized and tested. And we in orthodox Christianity will do just that, and have done so, and found him wanting.
BTW, I was just re-reading you post and it just occurred to me that it speaks truth to my Spirit. I get peace when I read it. I don't know how it could be taken any other way than it is written. And written in the Bible I might add. God is not the author of confusion. Praise be to God!
In all cases in the OT, "holy ones" is in reference to the Elect angels of God, so Jude cannot be speaking of Christians in that passage.
Oh, boy,............
"Behold, I shew you a mystery;" By the way, can you show me in scripture that there is not a catching away of the faithful before God's wrath falls on the earth?
What is this mystery?
And what about God has NOT appointed us [the faithful] unto wrath [God's Divine Judgment upon earth at the end]
And Hal Lindsey has not.
Good morning, or afternoon should I say.
Some people are looking for things in scripture that are not there , or taking it out of context to try to prove a point, when it is so simple to understand that a child could teach it.
And good Afternoon to you..What a beautiful day the Lord made. He could send a little more warmth my way!! It's going to be a little cold here in Mi today!!
I couldn't have said that better. Thanks..
When Scripture talks of "mystery" it is truth that has not been revealed before.
And what about God has NOT appointed us [the faithful] unto wrath [God's Divine Judgment upon earth at the end]
"Wrath" is God's judgment of sinners on the Last Day, when all come out of the grave, some to eternal death and some to eternal life.
Matthew 25:
31"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[a] angels[holy ones] with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
The "first resurrection" is regeneration of the Elect who were once dead in trespasses and sin.
All are raised, the wicked and the righteous on the Last Day and divided, the sheep from the goats.
Dispensationalism is a new invention that in it's essence denies the principle tenet of the historic Christian faith whereby there is only one way of salvation, which is faith in Christ. Dispensationalism has the Jews being saved simply because they are Jews. That is another gospel, a false gospel.
Well, from my end, I can see you have totally missed the deep spiritual truths written down to us in the Holy Scriptures. I can only suggest that you get into a Bible believing church and learn for yourself.
Why is it fundamentally flawed?
Jesus is the center and ultimate goal of all of creation and redemption. He is the second Adam, the head of a New Creation (1 Cor. 15:45). All the promises of God find their “Yes” in Him (2 Cor. 1:20). The salvation He has brought to the world is what the ancient prophets longed to look into and proclaimed (1Pet. 1:10-11, Acts 26:22). To put it another way, God has had one purpose from the beginning: to redeem a people for His glory through Jesus our Messiah. The glorious redemption through Jesus is what redemptive history is all about. This has always been the plan of God. The “fullness of the ages” has come upon us (1 Cor. 10:11).
Dispensationalism teaches otherwise. According to this error there are two distinct people of God, National/Physical Israel and the Church. The Church and Israel are two separate peoples of God with two separate purposes, they say. They are not to be confused, they say. According to classic dispensational teaching, the Church was not spoken of in the Old Testament, rather it is part of the “Great Parenthesis,” the period of time between the first and second comings of which the ancient prophets knew nothing.
“Plan A” is national and physical Israel. (Hereafter I will use the word “Ethnic” Israel –ethnic coming from the Greek word “ethnos” which encompasses the ideas of nation and people.) Classic dispensationalism says that if ethnic Israel had accepted Jesus as Messiah, the Davidic kingdom would have been established on the spot. Since Jesus was rejected and crucified, the kingdom was postponed and salvation has come to the Gentiles. Accordingly, the Church, made up of Jews and Gentiles, is not to be confused with “Israel.” This is substantially the teaching within Messianic Judaism, except some there teach that Jewish believers are not part of the “church”, they are not even “Christians” (and this is not just a matter of semantics), but are the spiritual remnant of Israel. Someday God will reinstate “Plan A” and again focus on an earthly Davidic Kingdom centered in national Israel. Gentile Christians have no right to the name “Israel”, and according to some extremists, Gentile Christians do not even have a covenant with God, since the New Covenant is with Israel and Judah!
Worse still, many dispensationalists believe the Temple will be set up again and the sacrifices will be reinstated after Jesus returns. But Hebrews says the old system is obsolete (Heb. 8:13). Jesus fulfilled it all.
But what about Jesus and His atonement? Do you see the evil of essentially designating the redemption He has brought as “Plan B?” He is our Savior. He is the true Israel. He is the vine. He is the Seed of Abraham (Gal. 3:16). He is the Anointed King of the Jews. Who can deny He has the ultimate right to the name “Israel?” To miss the point that the salvation we have in Jesus is what God has planned all along and that this glorious work of mercy and grace is the one true hope for both Jews and Gentiles is a tragic mistake. Oh, I know dispensationalists love the gospel. I know they trust Jesus alone for salvation. I'm sure they would be scandalized I have put it in these terms, but isn't this the ultimate implication of the idea that God has another plan in mind in addition to and alongside of salvation in Jesus Christ?
God says Jesus is a “covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles” (Isaiah 42:6). It is Messiah who will expand the Kingdom of God by bringing in the Gentiles. Israel is the Holy Nation, Israel is God's Kingdom. The throne of David is the Throne of God (1 Chronicles 29:23). Jesus commanded His Apostles to make disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:19). He said the gospel would go to all the world (Mt. 24:14), the Kingdom (which was already among them) was like yeast which leavens the whole loaf and a mustard seed which becomes the largest tree in the garden (Mt. 13:31-33). Paul quotes Isaiah 54 as referring to the Church, the Jerusalem that is above, which will have an abundance of children (Galatians 4:21-28). Paul tells us that the “barren woman” of Isaiah 54 is the Church, who Isaiah says will “expand to the right and to the left, and your descendants inherit the nations.”
Jesus has already restored the Temple and has already rebuilt Jerusalem! We are the Temple, of which Jesus is the cornerstone (Mark 14:58, Eph. 2:20-21). The Church is the Holy City of God, Jerusalem. God sees the Church as something glorious.
Hebrews 12:22-24 states:
“You have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the Living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the Church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a New Covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”
Read it again. The Church is Mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem. The salvation that Jesus brings has always been central. Jesus has always been the center of everything God has done, will do, and is doing. Ethnic Israel existed for the purpose of the Messianic Redemption, restoration of all of creation. Israel was created for the purpose of giving birth to Messiah Jesus and bringing the news of redemption to the world. (How ironic that, though dispensationalism makes ethnic Israel central and it rejoices that Jewish people are back in the land, it also teaches that one day millions of Jews will be destroyed there!) Do you see why dispensationalism is so flawed? It tends to diminish the glorious work of Jesus in our behalf. It tends to rob the Church of it's God given-glory. I pity our dear dispensational brothers who have been deceived and robbed by Satan. I am against the system because I love Jesus and I love God’s people. I am against dispensationalism because I love the finished work of the cross. I am against it because it lessens the redemption Jesus has won by making it only a plan, not the plan. I oppose it because it deceives our dispensational brothers for whom Jesus died. This is not just a matter of how one understands the millennium or interprets prophecy. It is has to do with the central issue of God's purpose in redemption. It is no small thing. There is not “Plan A” and “Plan B.” There is only one plan, Jesus and His kingdom.
One point remains. Is God finished with the Jewish people? No! Is there is still a purpose for ethnic Israel? Yes! Jewish people are not being returned to the land to have most be destroyed. They are being called to faith in Jesus so that they might be saved today, the day of salvation. God calls the Jewish people to join now in being a witness to the Messianic Redemption. God loves the Jewish people because of the Patriarchs and will restore them to again to faith in our Lord Jesus. Ethnic Israel has a gift and calling that is irrevocable (Romans 11:22-29). Ethnic Israel is not, and for that matter never was, the center of God's plan, but God does still call ethnic Israel to be a part of the redeemed people, the church. Ethnic Israel (the Jewish people) is called to join Spiritual Israel (the Church). In the church Jews and Gentiles together proclaim the great salvation Messiah Jesus has accomplished. Only when the Jewish people come back into the fold of Spiritual Israel can they find their reason for being, their true identity as Abraham’s children. Until they return the Church will, in some sense, be incomplete, as the natural branches are estranged. We long, pray and work toward the day when the Jewish people return to King Jesus and join the church in proclaiming the Good News!
This is not true.
Yes it is true.
The Scriptures clearly and specifically say the Jews will be saved, and not because they are Jewish.
The Scriptures say that the true Jew is the Jew who is one inwardly with the circumcision of the heart and not outwardly(meaning as in, circumcized a Jew and an ethnic Jew). Some ehtnic Jews have been, are and will be saved, through genuine faith in Christ.
You have not even read the Scriptures from your comments so I am not going to engage in a bias discussion with you.
Oh no, I study the Scriptures constantly. I didn't say that the Scriptures teach that Jews will be saved by merely being a Jew. That is what the Dispensationalists teach, in direct CONTRADICTION to Scripture. Sadly, you don't even know what dispensationalism teaches.
I admit. this is a copy and paste.
Differences Concerning Israel and the Church
(Classic or Dispensational)
Classic Dispensational
God has always had but one God has two bodies -- Israel and
spiritual people, represented the church.
by the remnant in every
generation.
God's promises to Israel were God's promises to Israel were
conditional. unconditional, and therefore are
still binding.
All earthly promises to Israel God's promises concerning the
have been either fulfilled or return to the land, rebuilding
invalidated through disobedience the temple, etc., were never
and unbelief. fulfilled. They are therefore
still future.
Israel was a type of the church Although Israel was a type of
and was superseded by the the church, they will always
church. remain separate.
The church was prophesied in Christ instituted the church as
the Old Testament, in Old a "parenthesis."
Testament language.
Christ was, and is, the only Christ came the first time to
Hope of Israel. And Israelites establish an earthly millennial
(Jews) will be saved only if kingdom with Israel.
they accept him during this age.
The first advent of Christ Israel rejected him, the God
completed Israel's redemption, postponed this plan until the
and manifested the Israel of second advent.
God (the church) referred to in
Galatians 6:16.
Christ instituted a Christ instituted a Gentile
Jewish-Gentile church. church.
All unfulfilled spiritual Israel is God's earthly people,
promises to Israel are being the church is God's heavenly
fulfilled through the Christian people.
church.
This does not represent a change Israel's destiny is to remain o
in God's plans, but evidences earth forever, the destiny of
progressive (continually the church is to spend eternity
unfolding) revelation. in heaven.
OOPS this didn't come out right. It is supposed to be in columns with the Classic on one side and the dispensation on the other.
You have been duped by really bad teaching, that requires such scripture twisting out of it's original meaning as understood by the Church from the beginning, that it has ended up as a false gospel.
Did you derive that out of my last post? I told you it was messed up...It didn't place it separate and in 2 columns. It confused me after I posted it! It was Classic vs Dispensation...Quite a good explanation actually.
“You have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the Living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the Church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a New Covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”
Christ and the Church are the fulfillment of all the Covenants.
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